CBF1000

CBF1000 => Lighting, Electrical, and Wiring => Topic started by: ADY on 30 August, 2008, 06:22:11 PM

Title: ALTERNATOR
Post by: ADY on 30 August, 2008, 06:22:11 PM
Today after a 70 mile ride around with 3 starts off the button the battery went flat so i called out the RCA who boosted the battery and got the bike going the charging system was then tested and the verdict was a suspect alternator .  So after 30 months and 15000 miles i am looking at a bill for about 500 . ( who said Honda's are reliable ) Well i must say it has put me off and my next bike will be from Yamaha  . Ady.

                         :023:  :023:  :023:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: andyscbf1000 on 30 August, 2008, 07:38:09 PM
Not another duff alternator on a Biffer.  I discussed this issue with Kestrel Honda in Coventry when my bike went in for tits 12 month service.  They appeared to know nothing of this issue but have to say that Kestrel seem to be pretty straight up guys so is Honda keeping this from their dealers??

I for one will be keeping a very close eye on my alternators output during months 21 to 24 of the warranty period.  This is an expensive repair that should NOT be necessary.

Andy
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Sixties Lad on 30 August, 2008, 07:43:20 PM
Agreed....it's got me a bit concerned I have to say. Between this forum and one dedicated to the Deauville I've read of several failures of the whole charging train.........alternator, rectifier and battery :006: :006:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Tender_Backside on 30 August, 2008, 08:25:13 PM
Please everyone keep this thread active. I'm in month 19 of ownership and am going over to Holland next week so I'm getting a bit jumpy with all these alternator problems.

Does anyone know if it dies can you bump start the bike? Can you even bump start a modern fuel injected bike?

Should I take jump leads? Is the AA cover you get with a new bike EU AA cover?

One of the reasons for choosing the Honda was supposed build quality. This is not what I call build quality  :151:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: andyscbf1000 on 31 August, 2008, 11:01:09 AM
Hi TA

I don't think there is a need to become particularly worried however there are more alternator failures coming to light (on the Blade also) than one might reasonably expect to read about.  In 39 years of riding with only the occasional break I have never has an alternator (or even magneto) fail.  Have had an overheating rectifier only once. 

Every one that fails needs to be reported on the forum.  Pete and Lyn, how are you getting on with Honda re your failure?

Andy
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: frank1 on 31 August, 2008, 11:45:51 AM
I have mentioned before this is a problem that effects some cbf's and cbr1000's for this reason honda extended the warranty on the generator on these models to five years.As for honda keeping it from dealers i am afraid that's a load of crap tell your dealer to do a buletin search on marris and it's on there.Failing that ask them to ring the tech helpline and they will point them in the right direction.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: andyscbf1000 on 31 August, 2008, 12:48:29 PM
Thanks for that Frank (read yours of 14th June).  One for chatting over when I am next in the shop.   First I have heard that the warranty has been extended to 5 years thoough, is this gospel?

Andy
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: frank1 on 31 August, 2008, 02:34:56 PM
It's actually an additional 5 years so 7 years in total,allthough it's not listed on the cbf when i checked with honda they said same engine so same applies
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: andyscbf1000 on 31 August, 2008, 02:54:48 PM
This thread SHOULD BE STICKIED.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Robo on 31 August, 2008, 06:10:07 PM
The Cbf does not have any extended warranty as of yet.

 My 07 Biffer had its first Alternator at 18000 miles.
Since then i have had one more and one fly wheel and two batteries
Honda do know there is a problem, but no recalls.

As for can you start your bike with jump leads the answer is No.
The reason this is that the Alternator burns out and overcharges the battery.

on both occasions with mine the battery was fried .once this happens no power no FI.

Just a little note that before the Alternator died ( twice) the bike will feel like it is running out of fuel, juddering. then it just stopped. once at a set of lights and the other when riding.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: frank1 on 31 August, 2008, 06:47:38 PM
Not being funny but you should be replacing it as a set, flywheel and generator together its an uprated part.and as it goes i know of at least 2 on cbf's that have been done on warranty AFTER the bike was more than 2 years old.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: frank1 on 31 August, 2008, 06:53:02 PM
Oh and your generator going down will not fry your battery,no generator no power how would it fry your battery?
Don't get me wrong if you don't get it sorted quickly it will totally drain it and probably need replacing but due to no charge not over charge.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Mark_C on 31 August, 2008, 08:58:00 PM
We really need some proper information about this.  personally, I am not so worried about the potential cost, it is breaking down when abroad that worries me.  I would like to be proactive and change the necessary parts before they break but which parts?

The various reports we have heard are vague and contradictory.  What fails?  Is it the regulator, rectifier, alternator rotor, stator, battery or some other component?  Is the failure sudden or could we do some tests to detect it at an early stage?

The people who have had problems never seem to get the full story from the repairer and it seems that Honda are not going to issue a tech bulletin so how do I make sure I don't suffer my first roadside breakdown in thirty-odd years of motorcycling?  Unless there is more than one weak link, I am guessing that it is the regulator which would explain why so many people report the problem as a battery failure.

But then why would anybody have to have a "flywheel replaced".  In the sixties all the small Honda twins used to stop charging and we were told that "the rotor (= flywheel) has become demagnetised"  Surely not still happening in 2008?
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Mark_C on 31 August, 2008, 09:07:03 PM
I think I will retract the remark about not being too bothered about the cost.  I have just looked up the prices and the rotor is 450 Euros and the rectifier is 420 Euros!

I am thinking of writing to Honda asking if they think my bike's charging system is reliable enough to take on the continent.  If they say no, they will have to tell me how to fix it or give me my money back, if they say yes, then when (if) it lets me down they will get a bill for the costs including compensation for a curtailed holiday.  Good plan?
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Trefoil on 31 August, 2008, 09:24:26 PM
Its worth a try but I am not holding my breath.

Any company that produces any goods or provides services will respond in a way that will not leave them open to any form of liability - if you where in business would you leave yourself or you business open to claims for unknown amounts?

Tref
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: voomonster on 31 August, 2008, 10:07:37 PM
*Originally Posted by ADY [+]
i am looking at a bill for about 500 .
500 for an alternator? 500 for a 16000 mile service?
I'm off to triumph next time around.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Trefoil on 31 August, 2008, 10:31:10 PM
I would shop around for your 16k mile service, I have been quoted 380-400

As for the Alternator problem - at the moment it seems to be a problem on a few bikes with different mileages/ages - which for them is a major issue. Yes there have been a few problems with them on the Fireblade.

We probably have no way of knowing if the alternators that were used on the Fireblade have been modified/improved but I would hope/like to think that whatever the cause/problem was then that Honda would have asked the manufacturer / supplier of the Alternator to have fixed it - Nobody wants to shell out money on warranties unless it has to.

At the moment, from what has been described, I am not entirely sure if it is the Alternator but whether it is more a regulator/rectifier problem in some cases. Alternators don't burn out batteries.

I also think there is danger/tendency in starting to blow this out of all proportion. Yes it is very unfortunate and expensive for those that have had to replace theirs but we don't known if it is common fault or just a few isolated incidents.

Tref
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Mrs Torquemonster on 01 September, 2008, 01:00:45 PM
*Originally Posted by Tender_Backside [+]
...
Does anyone know if it dies can you bump start the bike? Can you even bump start a modern fuel injected bike?
...

I've bump started both my 2003-spec R1 and my Hornet 900, so yes it can be done. In both cases I've used third gear. I've actually sat on board with my other half giving me a bit of a push. I've started out with the bike in neutral (to avoid clutch drag slowing it down) until a decent speed was reached, then kicked it up two cogs, then engaged the clutch fast but progressively. In both cases it's been because of a very flat battery, so the injection should still be able to cope.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Tender_Backside on 01 September, 2008, 06:23:43 PM
Many thanks Mrs Torquemonster. Now all I have to do is find a hill in Holland  :001:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Mrs Torquemonster on 01 September, 2008, 06:43:06 PM
*Originally Posted by Tender_Backside [+]
Many thanks Mrs Torquemonster. Now all I have to do is find a hill in Holland  :001:

The only thing that struck me later is that if it's just a flat battery, the alternator starts producing charge as soon as you bump it, to power the injection and everything else, and ultimately recharge the battery. If the alternator's gone down you'll never get any new charge out of it and soon you won't even have enough for the injection. Bump starting only really helps when either just the battery is a bit flat (without other charging circuit issues) or the starter is faulty.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: frank1 on 01 September, 2008, 07:53:30 PM
But honda are not hiding anything they do know of the problem and have released a buletin.The exact cause is the clearance between the generator and the flywheel was found to be to tight hence the need to replace as a set.The problem is brought on by riding at low revs causing the generator to overheat and will then short to earth.you will NOT be able to bump start the ike as the generator will not be producing any power.Can i allso say i think you are all over reacting this problem is not half as common as you seem to think.

And 500 for a 16k service are you mad just ring another dealer it should be nearer 250 than 500
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Peter 9410MHz on 01 September, 2008, 08:12:45 PM
You're 100% right.  My alternator died last month after 5000 miles and the bike just spluttered and died about a minute after I saw all the clocks and lights dead.  Temporarily connecting a battery pack across my battery meant the bike would start and run but once removed the bike died within a matter of seconds because the battery was flat.

If the regulator goes short circuit then the battery would be over-charged and would then ultimately die - perhaps the engine CPU etc would also die??

Anyway I will post a picture of my dead alternator when I can figure out how itz dun.... :003:

In my opinion the insulation broke down due to high temperature (I have seen similar failures in high voltage transformers) , the rest is history.  My unit failed after a re-fueling stop of a few minutes, perhaps the heat built-up when stationary?

Just seen Frank1's post.... no sign of abrasion on my alternator?
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Peter 9410MHz on 01 September, 2008, 08:16:31 PM
Fried Alternator :232:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: johnstg2 on 01 September, 2008, 08:52:28 PM
Just to confuse the issue.......when my alternator failed at 6000 miles (earth fault due to overheated insulation) it was still generating some power. In normal use the battery ran flat fairly soon and the bike stopped.

I did, however, experiment with pulling out the fuses for the lights and the alternator was generating enough power to charge the battery and keep essential circuits running i.e. fuel pump, engine management electronics, etc.

Full cost of repairs picked up by Honda although bike was out of warranty.

I seem to recall seeing on an other thread a letter from Honda USA to its American dealers telling the to replace alternators F.O.C. on 'blades, but I can't seem to find it again.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: frank1 on 01 September, 2008, 09:02:07 PM
*Originally Posted by Peter 9410MHz [+]
You're 100% right.  My alternator died last month after 5000 miles and the bike just spluttered and died about a minute after I saw all the clocks and lights dead.  Temporarily connecting a battery pack across my battery meant the bike would start and run but once removed the bike died within a matter of seconds because the battery was flat.

If the regulator goes short circuit then the battery would be over-charged and would then ultimately die - perhaps the engine CPU etc would also die??

Anyway I will post a picture of my dead alternator when I can figure out how itz dun.... :003:

In my opinion the insulation broke down due to high temperature (I have seen similar failures in high voltage transformers) , the rest is history.  My unit failed after a re-fueling stop of a few minutes, perhaps the heat built-up when stationary?

Just seen Frank1's post.... no sign of abrasion on my alternator?


I am not saying they actually touch but that is the reason given by honda, to tight on the clearance leading to over heating if used at sustained low revs.The first symptom according to honda should be a slight missfire at low revs which will get worse untill it stops running alltogether.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Mark_C on 01 September, 2008, 10:34:55 PM
*Originally Posted by frank1 [+]
But honda are not hiding anything they do know of the problem and have released a buletin.The exact cause is the clearance between the generator and the flywheel was found to be to tight hence the need to replace as a set.The problem is brought on by riding at low revs causing the generator to overheat and will then short to earth.

Can you tell us any more Frank?  Do you have the text or a reference number for the bulletin?  Do you know if the replacement sets that Honda fit have increased clearancess or some other fix applied?  Does the problem affect all the production run or just certain batches?  Can we measure the clearance to see if we have a potential problem?
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: johnstg2 on 02 September, 2008, 07:02:58 PM
I would have thought the windings would have overheated when they carried too much current with too little cooling, rather than because of its close proximity to the flywheel.

I'm sure I read that the later 'blades and CBF's had alternators with thicker insulation between the coils to prevent it breaking down when hot.

I'm off to search the interweb for more info.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: johnstg2 on 02 September, 2008, 07:27:53 PM
Here is a copy of a posting on cbrforum.com from a guy who has had a letter from Honda acknowledging alternator problems on 04 & 05 'blades (same engine as 06 CBF's). I think it applies to USA but interesting reading anyway.



Good News!

I got a letter from Honda a few days ago indicating that they are giving a 6 year extended warranty on the ACG (charging system) on all 04-05 CBR 1000RR. I know some of you guys/gals have had some problems with this component on your bikes. For those of you who already spent money, you may be eligible for a reimbursement. Here's what they are saying:

"American Honda has determined that riding a 2004-2005 CBR1000RR motorcycle in the low RPM range for an extended period of time may cause the ACG to overheat, which causes a short circuit of the stator windings, resulting in insufficient battery charging.

If your CBR1000RR is starting normally, you do not need to do anything at this time.

If, however, your 2004-2005 CBR 1000RR is becoming increasingly difficult to start (such as after refueling during a ride), because the engine cranks slowly or will not crank at all, the battery may have discharged while riding due to a faulty ACG. (Note: This warranty extension does not apply to starting problems that result from improper battery storage or any other electrical system malfunction.)"

You can take your bike in to have the ACG inspected, but otherwise, you'll just have to wait until it breaks down on some canyon road before they will replace it under this extended warranty. It's not a recall, but it's better than nothing. If you have any beef, call Honda at (866) 784-1870.

< Message edited by 2wheels -- 5/26/2007 12:23:11 AM >
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Tour_man on 06 September, 2008, 03:00:28 AM

I spent several months researching the Bandit, then after one ride on the Biffer, and no research, bought one. Feeling quite dis-heartened to hear all this talk of alternator problems.

The bike is not sold in the U.S. and only at certain stores in Canada, so getting the bike fixed in a timely manner just isn't likely to happen.

Perhaps I forgo the hard bags, buy softies and think about what to replace the Biffer with.

There was a regulator/rectifier problem with the older VFR's, and it seemed to be related to the parts not getting enough airflow to keep them cool.

At this stage, the company should of had these problems sorted out.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Trefoil on 06 September, 2008, 04:17:08 AM
Hi

The issue of the alternator arose with 2004-2005 CBR1000RR (Fireblades) and according to Honda (America) was caused in the low RPM range for an extended period of time, causing the ACG to overheat, which causes a short circuit of the stator windings, resulting in insufficient battery charging.

According to the Honda Bulletin

The exact cause is the clearance between the generator and the flywheel was found to be to tight hence the need to replace as a set. The problem is brought on by riding at low revs causing the generator to overheat and will then short to earth.

We believe Honda fixed the problem by increasing the insulation on the windings.

There have been a few people with the CBF1000, which uses a retuned Fireblade engine that have been unlucky enough to have had a problem with the alternator.

What we don't know is with the few incidents that have occurred is due to an unfortunate manufacturing fault/quality issue that has affected a few bikes or whether there is a bigger issue/problem.

The CBF1000 has been produced from 2006, using a retuned Fireblade engine and as Honda was aware there was a problem with the 2004/5 Fireblade alternators would have taken steps to ensure the risk of something similar happening again on the CBF1000 was minimised. 

That doesn't rule out unfortunate manufacturing fault/quality issue affecting some bikes. At the moment given the very few numbers that the Forum is aware of I would be edging towards unfortunate manufacturing fault/quality issue rather than a larger scale problem.

Its a fact of life that despite quality control systems etc etc manufacturing faults do occur from time to time.

The other thing is, as few others have said, is that things like this that start to get blown out of proportion, mountains are made out of molehills, because at the moment we don't know the exact cause of the ones that have had a fault and that in turns tends to give a distorted picture of the situation and causing people to worry unnecessarily.

For the moment I would enjoy the bike because it is a great bike to ride.

Tref

Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: andyscbf1000 on 06 September, 2008, 10:51:52 AM
*Originally Posted by Trefoil [+]

I also think there is danger/tendency in starting to blow this out of all proportion. Yes it is very unfortunate and expensive for those that have had to replace theirs but we don't known if it is common fault or just a few isolated incidents.

Tref

 :0461:  but I will still keep a close eye on this and other 'known faults' in last 3 months of the warranty period.

Andy
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: ADY on 06 September, 2008, 05:51:03 PM
Do you know that funny burning smell you got when your bike was brand new and then it went away after a couple of days well as i was thinking back as to what went wrong i remember smelling that burning smell again a couple of weeks ago when the weather was hot and i was stuck in slow traffic i thorte it strange at the time but it may just be connected to the alternator burning out . Just a thorte . Ady.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Breeze on 06 September, 2008, 07:15:31 PM
 :232: Too Many for my liking, If this was one or two I would agree it`s over the top. Read back through postings of this problem and you will find it is Quite well posted. Apart from that it shouldn`t happen. We are a small group of about 1700 . How many thousands have been sold. So we must be the unlucky sector then, I don`t think so . It may have something to do with riding area`s, as far as I can make out it seems to have something to do with cooling . I.E.  If you do a lot of heavy traffic work hot alternator with low revs stood at lights ect. It`s gonna overheat the coils because there isn`t sufficient cooling with the low revs. My theory only. But what ever it is they should sort it out. I believe this bike inherited a known problem with the old blade engine.   
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: peteandlyn on 08 September, 2008, 12:12:05 PM
Andy, re our ongoing correspondence with Honda (UK) ref our stator generator failure (batterie regulator was also replaced) we are awaiting a reply to our letter sent last week asking them to rethink their offer of 190 54p and to come a lot closer to the 410 that the repair cost. By the way these parts failed after a 260 mile ride along fairly main roads at a good pace.  At the end we stopped at a cafe for 45 mins before riding 2 miles to our b & b. It did not start again after that. (All this happened at the end fo a 2500 mile trip around Germany).
Peteandlyn
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: chewbacca on 19 September, 2008, 01:06:48 AM
Hello all,

Just logged back in from a time away and saw this thread. Had to read it when I saw the word 'alternator'. So far my beast has done a little over 18k and in one hit, unfortunately in Spain, it blew its regulator and generator. Long way from home etc, 4 days til the warranty ran out  :007: and the Honda dealer in Spain would not recognise my HONDA warranty. So far I'VE had to pay out in excess of 600 for the 'repairs' in Spain with another 300 to come to reconnect the **** alarm. The alarm was disconnected by the dealers over there and in doing so, they trashed the wiring on it. The alarm has had to be sent off to datatool for re wiring. Once I get the alarm reconnected I WILL be writing off to Honda demanding a full refund and not the amount they sent me as a cheque  :211:

Not at all happy at the moment but can't afford to replace the bike  :232: :232 :172:

Wookies should not be allowed to get upset...

Chewy
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: andyscbf1000 on 19 September, 2008, 08:44:48 AM
*Originally Posted by chewbacca [+]
4 days til the warranty ran out  :007: and the Honda dealer in Spain would not recognise my HONDA warranty.

So much for the European Union and International warranties then  :027:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: xtian on 22 September, 2008, 11:52:22 AM
as reported before, my alternator died around 16000km /10000Mls september 07.
Bought the bike in november 06.
this week, september 08 the battery died, 29,000km.
I changed the battery and this other than this really great bike runs fine again even If I think a new battery every 2 years will cost more than expected. :/
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bikerhifinut on 25 September, 2008, 11:30:25 AM
Methinks you could choose ANY model of motorcycle and find a list of faults and issues as long as your arm!
Mind you i will say that the prehistoric design of generator wont help as it'll be running at full pelt all the time, as opposed to the field coil style where the regulator merely supplies current sufficient to provide enough juice from the stator coils to supply the demand at the time. Its probably related to additional weight etc. The touring bikes eg Pans have a proper alternator and for good reason as one would expect to run accessories etc.
If you are so worried about your alternator then fit a voltmeter and you can monitor the charging voltage. Its an ommision on Jap bikes that i fail to understand, no charge light or voltmeter. I will look into this and if I can come up with a simple and easy to fit solution I'll post.
Andy.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: andyscbf1000 on 25 September, 2008, 02:43:28 PM
Agree, having a charging light would be useful at least give a bit of advance warning of someyhing amiss.  Never had a volt meter on a bike but have had an ammeter many many moons ago - C15, Tiger Club, Dominator.

Looking forward to this, and where you propose to mount.

Andy
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Snibor on 25 September, 2008, 05:41:17 PM
On my last CBF "06" model for quickness, I wired heated grips direct to the battery and like a fool left them switched on when we stopped for a coffee.Needless to say the battery was as dead as a dodo and I called the AA who started the bike in seconds with jump leads and off I went.I was unaware of any jumpstart problems and no problem ever appeared on the bike during the time I owned it. As this was done around 2000 miles and the bike was sold with 26535 on the clock I'm surprised to read some of the suggested electrical faults.After the event I then wired the heated grips via a relay connected to a live ignition feed as I should have done from day1.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bikerhifinut on 25 September, 2008, 06:17:56 PM
*Originally Posted by andyscbf1000 [+]
Agree, having a charging light would be useful at least give a bit of advance warning of someyhing amiss.  Never had a volt meter on a bike but have had an ammeter many many moons ago - C15, Tiger Club, Dominator.

Looking forward to this, and where you propose to mount.

Andy

Quick update,
Theres a few nice solid state digital options around, all seem USA sourced but thats what we want. No moving parts!
Wiring a simple voltmeter is a piece of the proverbial.
Being as i would want to monitor the voltage at the battery +ve terminal, then all I would do is take a feed off my already fitted accessory relay so that the meter comes on when the ignition is on. (Using a tap off the live end of the rear brake light switch to energise the relay).
It may be ok to just take a tap off the live brake light wire and connect that to the Voltmeter.
I was hoping that someone out there makes a nice chrome bezel meter that would clamp round the handlebar tube like those dinky bike clocks you can buy at gerickes.
Just another small point, a voltmeter is a far more useful diagnostic instrument than an ammeter. It'll tell you if the battery is holding a charge on switch on, and whether its under or over charging.
Is there a section on this site for owners tweeks and mods, it would be nice to have something that we could say download as pdf and print off. I personally arent bothered about my copyright etc its all in the cause of helping fellow owners out.
Andy.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR - One more bike with stator burnout
Post by: FireBladerDk on 30 September, 2008, 12:26:31 PM
First the heated grips failed to work and nex day the the starter was unable to start the engine.
I charged the battery and measured charging voltage to be arround 12.0 Volt and independant of enginge rotation speed, so clearly the charging system is not working correctly.
As the bike is less than 2 years old I expect Honda to cover the repair under the 2-years warranty. Today the garage reported that fault is in the stator.
Seems stator burnout is a common problem on the CBF and Fireblade.  :003:

Freddy.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Ratty on 03 October, 2008, 02:12:56 PM
 :495: Update, also put into the general forum what you would like to say to Mr Honda thread.
I eventually managed to get around to booking my Bike in at Gedges of Hastings regarding the non charging issue. They admitted that they had a "few" problems with bikes of about 2 - 1/2 years on them, and some had been replaced within warranty and others on the discretion of Honda. I fell into the second category as my bike was out of warranty, Honda agreed to replace the Alternator FOC, I just had to pay the labour. Reasonable result in my opinion. My real concern is what happens in another 2 years time when the alternator gives up the ghost again? I was also lucky that the battery appears to be undamaged, as they did mention that sometimes (depending upon the actual fault) the battery can be fried too. Many Biffer owners have reported issues with the charging side, and maybe as a general response Honda should admit there is a design issue and replace or upgrade all of the suspect alternators. The best thing is that because I've had my bike serviced regularly, (until very recently) Gedges were on my side, if you don't keep your dealer on friendly terms it could cost you dear.  Ray
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Commuter on 21 October, 2008, 11:30:15 PM
My May 06 CBF has covered 42000 miles on its daily commute into London. It has just had its second Alternator replacement. The first happened about a year ago, so it lasted about as long as the first one! Thankfully Honda did the whole replacement, alternator, stator and flywheel for free....if you don't count the cost of the train fares while the bike was off the road for two weeks.

The only indication I had of low voltage was that the first LED on the factory fit heated grip controller flashes once every 20-30 seconds when on low revs at traffic lights. Does anyone else suffer this problem or is it an early sign of doom?
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Backfire on 22 October, 2008, 10:54:53 AM
*Originally Posted by Commuter [+]

The only indication I had of low voltage was that the first LED on the factory fit heated grip controller flashes once every 20-30 seconds when on low revs at traffic lights. Does anyone else suffer this problem or is it an early sign of doom?

My CBF has done this from new. The last few miles of my commute can be quite slow and I've noticed the first led flashes after a couple of miles at low revs. Sometimes it even does it with the heated grips off. Maybe the fan kicks in and drags the voltage down below what the grips need.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Aran on 22 December, 2008, 07:54:24 PM
It seems I'm looking at a new alternator, the mender having already replaced the battery & rectifier. All at 18k miles. I am less than happy. :172:
He mentioned it seemed to be putting out a healthy 180w, until I noticed the handbook gives 370 as the output.

I had electrical gremlins with the bike before this (BMW R1150RT) too, so am starting to feel paranoid about electrics. How come electrics in my car (also a Honda) don't cause a moment's thought, yet put it in a bike and it roasts itself. :232:

Aran
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: ADY on 04 January, 2009, 10:30:10 AM
In my openion the design engineers at Honda got there maths wrong on the earlier bikes and i think that the bikes cooling system in certain circumstances is inefficient and the engine runs too hot and destroys the chargingsystem it could be that the water pump is not fast enough or the radiator is to small who knows but the outcome is disastrous and very costly . Ady.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 09 January, 2009, 03:17:25 PM
It's been a month, and Honda Portugal still hasn't replyed to me saying if they'll give me warranty over the burnt alternator or not...
Good thing they worry about their clients right? Good thing they are on top of the situation and warning everyone, right? I'd hate to think someone might end up lightless, powerless, and ABSless in a tight spot... Honda, move you ass and admite to your mistakes!
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: johnstg2 on 09 January, 2009, 08:28:55 PM
Honda should have rectified this problem ages ago by a product recall. Yes it's good that in most casses they replace burnt alternators F.O.C. even outwith the warranty period, but it is not acceptable for a company of Honda's stature to wait until customers bikes break down before they will help.

Apart from the financial aspect of this, riders safety could be at risk if the bike looses power or stops in traffic. In some cases peoples holidays could be ruined by a breakdown. How do you put a price on that?

Not good enough Honda!
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 09 January, 2009, 08:34:40 PM
*Originally Posted by johnstg2 [+]
Honda should have rectified this problem ages ago by a product recall. Yes it's good that in most casses they replace burnt alternators F.O.C. even outwith the warranty period, but it is not acceptable for a company of Honda's stature to wait until customers bikes break down before they will help.

Apart from the financial aspect of this, riders safety could be at risk if the bike looses power or stops in traffic. In some cases peoples holidays could be ruined by a breakdown. How do you put a price on that?

Not good enough Honda!

Heck, in my case, it's been one month and Honda still hasn't contacted me back. They ruined a month of bike riding for me. That includes a couple of weekend getaways. That includes 1 month of going to work in a car, which I don't own, waking up earlier, getting home later, burning my patience stuck in heavy traffic. Who is going to pay for the car? The extra gas I spent? The time I loose that I wouldn't loose if I was on the bike I bought from Honda?

I wonder if there is some international company we can talk about this, to pressure Honda into doing the right thing. Personally I still haven't pressed charges at Portuguese DECO because honestly I'm hopping they move their asses and pay for the burnt alternator, but I'm at the end of my patience here...
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Furlongs on 11 January, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
Just a thought but how many people who have encountered the overheating and system failure problem have radiator grills fitted??

With out doubt the CBF runs at a higher temp than my old VFR and Pan Euro so fitting a grill must exacerbate the problem    :187:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 12 January, 2009, 03:25:08 AM
*Originally Posted by Furlongs [+]
Just a thought but how many people who have encountered the overheating and system failure problem have radiator grills fitted??

With out doubt the CBF runs at a higher temp than my old VFR and Pan Euro so fitting a grill must exacerbate the problem    :187:
No radiator grill, only a lower spoiler (not even a full fairing).
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: vlassishlk on 12 January, 2009, 12:32:25 PM
*Originally Posted by johnstg2 [+]
Honda should have rectified this problem ages ago by a product recall. Yes it's good that in most casses they replace burnt alternators F.O.C. even outwith the warranty period, but it is not acceptable for a company of Honda's stature to wait until customers bikes break down before they will help.



Not good enough Honda!
:460: Honda  should have issued a recall. It's a potentially dangerous situation.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: dazoo on 13 January, 2009, 01:06:37 PM
This is something I have never understood. If my car goes off the road, for whatever reason, I'll get a courtesy car. Seat even had to pay up for my car hire for several weeks at one point because they accept that people can't be without.

So why is it that bikes are classified as something that it is ok to lose for weeks at a time. I have encountered this before and I always claim that it is my only form of transport to try to get a courtesy bike.

Personally I'd be looking for a hire vehicle with Honda picking up the cost.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 13 January, 2009, 01:16:49 PM
Honda replyed (finally, it's only been a month). They will give me an alternator.
According to them, there are no reported similar problems of Honda CBF1000s through out the Europe, and many times what we read on forums are plain out lies (so all you out there that had the exact same problem before I had, you liars you).
They said my bike was out of warranty, but because they took a month to reply, they decided to give me the alternator out of good will. Good for me. And this is a unique situation (as unique as all the CBFs that received a new alternator here in the forum I guess, which they have no knowledge of suposedly).

So basicly, they sell me a faulty bike. When the alternator fails, it might endanger me, and I stay without my bike for a whole month. This is also a problem that there are numerous reports, to which Honda already gave out the alternator out of warranty, although they still won't admit to a defective product. And in the end, you are all liars (dispite the fact you had the problem before I had), and I just lucked out in the most bizarre defective product ever matching the same complains the liars are having online. But, they are good willed. So they'll substitute my defective product, free of charge, despite no real obligation to do so.

Are they making fun of me? Do they take me for stupid? I mean, seriously, how dumb do you want to make me?
They know I don't want to spend the money on the alternator, so they can even afford to make fun at my expense, instead of doing the honorable thing, and coming out clean.

Honda Portugal, your email left a very bitter taste in my mouth. Like a exclamation point in the end of this ridiculous 1 month proccess.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: dazoo on 13 January, 2009, 08:31:35 PM
Is it worth starting a thread where people who have had alternators replaced post the details of which dealer did the replacement, when it was done and any reference numbers?

This will be of benefit for anyone else who needs to fight for a claim.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Furlongs on 15 January, 2009, 07:49:21 PM
Just adding my bit!!  I had battery cooking problem with  old VFR.  It was the rectifyer that was at fault.  No doubt if run long enough this would cause the generator to charge more and over heat. 
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Snibor on 16 January, 2009, 09:17:07 AM
If as dazoo suggests a new thread is started listing all alternator problems which have been pit right by Honda dealers,whether in or out of warranty, and a copy on each occasion is forwarded to Honda,with a further copy to Trading Standards then perhaps it would make any future claims that bit quicker and easier to be rectified and may even generate a recall. - Snibor
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Breeze on 16 January, 2009, 07:21:10 PM
 :460: :0461: I would like to say to Honda, We appreciate your Good Will In replacing the parts , but we would appreciate it more if you would be honest with us and accept  that reliability for some people has been compromised, and this is ultimately one of the reasons we bought a Honda in the first place, I have not had this problem yet, but I would appreciate Honda more if they would accept their failing in this case, every manufacturer has defects, it is how they handle the problem for their customers that they will be judged, so far Honda Has not stood out in this regard. A poor responce this has been. :031:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bross on 16 January, 2009, 11:31:24 PM
Is there an agency in the UK or Europe similar to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, NHTSA in the states.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallsearch.cfm (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallsearch.cfm)

Sometimes the only way to get a manufacturer to issue a recall is to get the govt on it's case. It's important in the US that everyone, and I mean everyone who experiences a problem like this reports it to the NHTSA. That way they can see patterns, frequency etc. and if it's a safety issue a recall is mandated.

There needs to be on organized trusted body to collect this information, sorry but a thread on our website isn't going to do anything to get Honda to listen. I'm kind of surprised that people aren't aware of this issue with Honda. I bought the CBF with my eyes wide open knowing that Honda have had regulator/rectifier issues since caveman days, still do to this day, and not sure why as Honda have some brilliant engineers but they just can't seem to figure this one out.  :087: :110:

And I'm in no way saying it's acceptable for this to be happening, but heck I'm coming off a servo assisted shaft driven BMW, alternators are nothing! I also rode my RT for 33,000 trouble free kms but if you believed the internet hype, I was about to crash off a cliff due to brake failure with my final drive on fire. I expect to put just as many trouble free miles on the CBF.

There always seem to be a relatively small number of bikes affected, so playing devils advocate here. You can see Honda's point that there really isn't a problem if they have thousands of CBFs running around with zero issues and only dozens with faulty alterntors. Doesn't make you feel any better when it's your bike that dies but these are machines, they break, you fix it and keep riding.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 17 January, 2009, 12:09:07 AM
*Originally Posted by bross [+]
There always seem to be a relatively small number of bikes affected, so playing devils advocate here. You can see Honda's point that there really isn't a problem if they have thousands of CBFs running around with zero issues and only dozens with faulty alterntors. Doesn't make you feel any better when it's your bike that dies but these are machines, they break, you fix it and keep riding.
The problem of Honda's aproach is that they don't take charge of the problem. If they don't admit they have a problem, some customers will just pay for the new alternator themselves, others will have to wait a month for a reply (like my case), and in the end someone might end up getting hurt.
It's relatibly easy to check if the alternator is having troubles or not. Before the alternator burns out, it starts charging the batery less and less. They just have to check how much the alternator is outputting in watts, and verify it against the manual.

Even if it's only a hundred motorcycles with this problem, they know about it, they should alert the dealerships - HECK at least alert themselves about this. Honda Portugal, according to their email still doesn't know squat about this issue. I'm baffled because I'm either more informed than them (there is clearly a pattern here in the forum, I bet they could find out a better pattern in all their clients who don't use this forum but own a '06 biffer), or, they are outright lying to me. In either case, I don't like it.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bross on 17 January, 2009, 02:14:50 AM
*Originally Posted by CyberClaw [+]
*Originally Posted by bross [+]
There always seem to be a relatively small number of bikes affected, so playing devils advocate here. You can see Honda's point that there really isn't a problem if they have thousands of CBFs running around with zero issues and only dozens with faulty alterntors. Doesn't make you feel any better when it's your bike that dies but these are machines, they break, you fix it and keep riding.
The problem of Honda's aproach is that they don't take charge of the problem. If they don't admit they have a problem, some customers will just pay for the new alternator themselves, others will have to wait a month for a reply (like my case), and in the end someone might end up getting hurt.
It's relatibly easy to check if the alternator is having troubles or not. Before the alternator burns out, it starts charging the batery less and less. They just have to check how much the alternator is outputting in watts, and verify it against the manual.

Even if it's only a hundred motorcycles with this problem, they know about it, they should alert the dealerships - HECK at least alert themselves about this. Honda Portugal, according to their email still doesn't know squat about this issue. I'm baffled because I'm either more informed than them (there is clearly a pattern here in the forum, I bet they could find out a better pattern in all their clients who don't use this forum but own a '06 biffer), or, they are outright lying to me. In either case, I don't like it.
I think it's just a fact of life in our very litigious society. Sad but true, not trying to defend the manufacturers in any way but I can understand their dilemma. If they admit any fault they'll get their @sses handed to them, it's a fine line they have to walk and no doubt that line is decided by lawyers. 
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 17 January, 2009, 02:25:26 AM
*Originally Posted by bross [+]
I think it's just a fact of life in our very litigious society. Sad but true, not trying to defend the manufacturers in any way but I can understand their dilemma. If they admit any fault they'll get their @sses handed to them, it's a fine line they have to walk and no doubt that line is decided by lawyers. 
Yet they charge for a product. A product that can cause death if mishandled.
If their product is defective, and that defect can harm or kill people, shouldn't they be trialed? Shouldn't they be accountable for selling us a defective product. Heck, if I knew I was buying a defective product that could potentially end my life, I wouldn't buy it, or at least I'd triple check the potential defect in the product all the time.
If it's the price we pay, for having a "cheaper" bike, compared to lets say, BMWs, wrong again. We wouldn't stand a car 200 euros new car caught fire with people inside. It doesn't matter the price. If they need to charge more for a safer product, then they should. If they are cutting costs, by cutting safety check measures, all I can say is they should be burned publicly.

Product recalls happen all the time. And waiting for the **** to hit the fan, isn't the best choice. When someone seriously hurts or gets themselves killed thanks to a burned alternator, then Honda will be forced to take a stance... but then it'll be too late won't it? No, I'm pretty sure the reason they are doing this, is to save money (alternators aren't cheap, I'm guessing they'd loose the profit margin if they had to replace a great deal of alternators), and to avoid admiting that their product is faulty (publicity wise, it's better not to talk about it, so only the people on the inside know, most dealerships aren't even aware, mine wasn't, and it's the biggest Honda dealership North of Portugal).
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bross on 17 January, 2009, 03:43:50 AM
*Originally Posted by CyberClaw [+]
*Originally Posted by bross [+]
I think it's just a fact of life in our very litigious society. Sad but true, not trying to defend the manufacturers in any way but I can understand their dilemma. If they admit any fault they'll get their @sses handed to them, it's a fine line they have to walk and no doubt that line is decided by lawyers. 
Yet they charge for a product. A product that can cause death if mishandled.
If their product is defective, and that defect can harm or kill people, shouldn't they be trialed? Shouldn't they be accountable for selling us a defective product. Heck, if I knew I was buying a defective product that could potentially end my life, I wouldn't buy it, or at least I'd triple check the potential defect in the product all the time.
If it's the price we pay, for having a "cheaper" bike, compared to lets say, BMWs, wrong again. We wouldn't stand a car 200 euros new car caught fire with people inside. It doesn't matter the price. If they need to charge more for a safer product, then they should. If they are cutting costs, by cutting safety check measures, all I can say is they should be burned publicly.

Product recalls happen all the time. And waiting for the **** to hit the fan, isn't the best choice. When someone seriously hurts or gets themselves killed thanks to a burned alternator, then Honda will be forced to take a stance... but then it'll be too late won't it? No, I'm pretty sure the reason they are doing this, is to save money (alternators aren't cheap, I'm guessing they'd loose the profit margin if they had to replace a great deal of alternators), and to avoid admiting that their product is faulty (publicity wise, it's better not to talk about it, so only the people on the inside know, most dealerships aren't even aware, mine wasn't, and it's the biggest Honda dealership North of Portugal).
The CBF isn't a cheap bike to me and as far as comparing to BMW, well there's no point going there. I got rid of my 06 BMW RT, not for any mechanical issues, simply because I like the CBF better. But BMW is going through pretty much the same thing on several issues: final drive failures, servo brake failures. There are well documented cases of these failures but BMW is handling it the same as Honda, pretty much silence. They have repaired and or replaced all the final drives that have failed in and out of warranty, within reason but similar to Honda are admitting no fault. But again, and I'm not saying they're right, but these failures are happening to a small percentage of bikes, so again if there are literally thousands and thousands of bikes running around the world *without* these failures, then do they *really* have a problem?

Personally I think the BMW issues are quality control and not inherent design flaws. Monday morning bikes if you will. I understand peoples frustration, especially if it's happened to you, but frankly I'm not losing any sleep over it, just like I didn't lose any sleep over my BMW. I just rode it and enjoyed several years and many miles of trouble free service, just like I expect from my CBF. If it breaks, I'll fix it and keep riding it, cause I like it.

PS You a lawyer?  :084: :031:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 17 January, 2009, 04:16:42 AM
Not a layer. Just a pissed off costumer that's used to eletronics, and so, used to how different brands manage different defective appliances.

They have a problem as long as they sell a product that's defective. It doesn't matter if it's just 1 defective bike, or a whole lot. Someone payed for the bike, and the bike was defective. Since it's more than one case as we can see here, it's clearly at least a serial batch of bikes - I dunno how wide-spread it is. It's a problem. They should admit that a very small number of bikes is having an alternator malfunction and offer a replacement and apologies. The way Honda Portugal handled my case, I waited 1 full month because they didn't know, they replyed to me saying they still didn't know, and decided to offer me an alternator out of good will. Heck, it sounded like I'm the one that should be gratefull for the faulty bike and their "swift and genorous" response to the problematic product I bought them.

I'll give other examples of problems in other businesses. Microsoft had failure rates of up to 70% of XBox 360s. They offered either a new console, or a repair, free of charge, with pick up and delivery to your place, free of charge as well. They downplayed the problem initially (saying that there weren't that many consoles failing, but they'd gladly substitute it swiftly for anyone with a problem). Like the CBF, I bought the XBox 360 as soon as it arrived on the market. I phoned MS when my XBox failed, they asked me to go over a couple of procedures, and sent a corrier to my house to pick it up, send to UK, and a new one came back in little over a week.
Honda took over a month to give me a response (although they sent the alternator to Motoboxe in 4 days, which fitted it the day it arrived, not charging me any fitting expense). If at least they admited the problem, it'd take them a day to say "Yes, there is a problem in some CBFs, get him a new alternator"... But instead we have to dance.

More examples, I received an electrical cable for my XBox 1 in my mail free of charge. There was a small batch of cables that caused a short circuit, and there was a case where one of them caught fire to a piece of paper somewhere in America (fire which was swiftly estinguished, no big damage and no personal injury). Microsoft sent everyone with a registered XBox 1, a new cable.

Nintendo Wiis controlers are known to break a couple of tvscreens here and there, due to the strap not being really that sturdy (it is, but it can wear out chaffing against bracelets I guess, I can't picture the strap breaking in any other way), and people letting go of the controller midswing. Nintendo offered a sturdier strap sent home to everyone, free of charge. A month later they came up with a rubber jacket for the controller, and everyone that bought a Nintendo Wii or controller without the rubber jacket, received one to fit their controller.

My wireless repeater stoped working the other day. It was over 1 year old. It was sent to the factory, and I received a new one free of charge after less than a week.

A cheap brand 80Gig HDD stopped working progressivly after a couple of months. There were numerous complaints about that model, and I was given another one (one where the problem was fixed).

Of course we are talking about "minor" stuff. Not really that expensive, but if you take into account the price of the original item, mailing out all the stuff, eats a big chunk out of their profit margin. They didn't have to do it. But they did, to keep their costumers happy with both the brand and the product.

Honda is happy to keep the costumers ignorant about the possible problems.

Going a bit off topic here, but the funny thing is that nowadays people are getting used to stuff breaking up... Stuff breaks, right? Wrong. At least here in Portugal, something can't break the day after the warranty expires. If you buy a car, and it literally breaks apart 1 day after the warranty is over, you can take the case to DECO and they'll be all over the manufacturers ass. Things are suposed to last a reasonable amount of time (a 15 year old car breaking apart is understandable, not a 1 year old car).
It's almost as people "take the chance" buying something, and if it's not working properly they lucked out and some won't even bother to complain about it (obviously I'm talking about minor electrical appliances here). Children's toys have a really high failure rate. Most aren't returned, because why bother? Children break them anyway, or adults assume it was their fault to begin with. I had a faulty chopter in Xmas many years ago. I went to the store, demanded a new one with my father. The lady said that it was a very demanded product that year, and they had no complains so far. She opened 5 chopters in front of me, and not one of them had the electrical part working correctly. The best one in the batch, only had the leds failing... We gave up on the 5th. I got a money refund. Top seller that Xmas and no one complained...
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: spartan117 on 17 January, 2009, 09:43:39 AM
I sympathise with all that have had or are having an alternator problem and you're right, Honda should do the decent thing and advise customers there may be a problem with a certain batch but the bottom line, as already mentioned, is money  :005: .  It costs far more to admit a fault and issue a product recall, either full or specific, than to wait for a customer to complain and then fix it/replace it.  The practice sucks but to the manufacturer it is simply common sense economics since their first loyalty is to the share holders not their customers.  The logic is "why pay out unless we have to or are forced to"!  :232:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 17 January, 2009, 11:28:31 AM
When Microsoft has a better product support than Honda, you know the end of the world is nigh. XD
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR - Safety Recalls
Post by: Trefoil on 17 January, 2009, 01:02:40 PM
In the UK vehicle recalls are the responsibility of the vehicle manufactuer and can be undertaken in conjunction with VOSA.

However the criteria for a vehicle recall is:

- the defect reported by the manufacturer is safety related (not just a general product problem or quality issue)
- the defect must be common to a number of vehicles already sold for use in the UK
- the defect is a feature of design or construction liable to cause significant risk of personal injury or death (to road users/pedestrians etc)

As bad , inconvenient, frustrating as an alternator failure may well be I haven't yet see anything that would even come close suggesting there is a "safety" related issue.

There is a product quality issue but in terms of numbers/volumes of the 100's or 1000's of Honda motorbikes that use the same alternator that have been sold in the UK there are only a few - a handful that have been reported as having a problem.

In numbers terms there is a minor product quality problem - as bad , inconvenient, frustrating as that is to those that it happens to. You would like to think that Honda UK would or could be more sympathetic to those that it has happened to - customer care, brand loyality etc

Tref

Title: Re: ALTERNATOR - Safety Recalls
Post by: CyberClaw on 17 January, 2009, 01:44:48 PM
*Originally Posted by Trefoil [+]
As bad , inconvenient, frustrating as an alternator failure may well be I haven't yet see anything that would even come close suggesting there is a "safety" related issue.

I disagree. It is a safety issue. If the alternator fails, after a while you'll loose power in the bike and it'll shut down as soon as the batery dries. This means that:

-You'll loose the front and rear lights, which during the night can be very dangerous in a placed badly lighted
-You'll loose ABS. The bike will still brake, but in an emergency situation (for example in a twisty road with no ilumination) if you loose the lights (which you will at the same time), you'll obviously try to brake the bike ASAP before you fall off the road. A bike with ABS should be braked by applying full frontal and back brake, and let the ABS handle it. But the bike will not be with the ABS activated, since it has no power, which most bikers will not remmember in the heat of the momment, and applying full frontal brake will most likely lock the wheel and produce a endo, applying full back brake, will produce a skid, both of which can be dangerous (depending on the speed) if you are not expecting them (because you bought a bike with ABS). Worst, even if you manage to brake, keep in mind the rear brake light will not light up, quite in fact you don't have any light. A car might rear end you if you had someone behind you.
-You will also loose your motor. This might not sound a big deal, but if you are doing a tight curve slowly, loosing the motor means a crash, because you cannot acelarate out of the curve. If you are doing an overtake, and need the speed to complete the overtake safely before the car in the incomming lane reaches you, loosing the motor then, might result in a painfull crash. You'll also have the inconvinience of being stranded somewhere, with no way to get the bike working (the bike will not jump start if the alternator is burnt).

If you ask me, it is a safety issue. You might have the bike die on the garage. Or you might have the bike die on a really tight spot... Someone here already had the bike die on a round-about... With a little more bad luck it can happen in tighter spots and hurt someone...
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: spartan117 on 17 January, 2009, 04:47:30 PM
I'm not playing devil's advocate but I think you're both right.  In the first instance until some one is hurt or worse and the cause can be directly linked to a faulty alternator then Honda will do nothing because the absence of evidence, in a business sense and that is what is uppermost in Honda's mind, there is no need to act other than replace any reported faulty alternators.  Even our convoluted H&S regulations would not warrant a further risk assessment being carried out unless it could be argued that a real risk to a rider existed.  So far that has not been proved; that isn't to say it couldn't be proved in the future.
From the end user's perception our safety is paramount.  We buy a machine and do not expect to risk life and limb because of a faulty piece of equipment whether that is down to a faulty design or a badly manufactured batch.  Anything that might add to the everyday risk of riding isn't going to go down well with owners and quite right too.  We think that Honda should take due cognisance of what we are saying and do something about the alternator.
Our problem lies in forcing Honda, or indeed any manufacturer, to acknowledge that a fault exists and that can only be done by evidence.  I'd suggest, if you're serious about the subject, approaching Honda UK and using the Freedom of Information Act to obtain the number of alternators replaced/repaired under warranty within the UK as a first step.




Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Trefoil on 17 January, 2009, 08:37:40 PM
Sorry Cyberclaw you said  "If the alternator fails, after a while you'll loose power in the bike and it'll shut down as soon as the battery dries".

The failure, sudden or otherwise, of an alternator will not suddenly cause the bike to suddenly stop functioning, it will to continue to run using the power in the battery. It would likely to become a safety issue if the failure of the alternator lead to the bike immediately stop functioning, particularly if there was no warning of the alternator failure and if the failure was sudden.

Even with no engine power you can still operate ABS brakes, they are by no means anywhere near as efficient or effective but they can still be operated.

IF you are concerned that it is a safety issue what do you do about the "kill switch" - if that was accidentally knocked at speed that would cut the engine dead but there are no measures in place to prevent that being accidentally switched off.  Fuses - if the main fuses blows that stops the engine...

Freedom of information. If you ask for information under the freedom of information act you have to be very careful on how you phrase the question, as they are only have to answer the specific question you have asked.

For example. Asking for the number of alternators replaced under warranty will give you a different answer to asking for the number of alternators that have been replaced or requested by dealers/garages. Some alternators may have been replaced at the either the owners or dealers expense ie not under warranty. Is this alternator used by any other Honda engine?

Tref
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 18 January, 2009, 02:44:16 AM
*Originally Posted by Trefoil [+]
Sorry Cyberclaw you said  "If the alternator fails, after a while you'll loose power in the bike and it'll shut down as soon as the battery dries".

The failure, sudden or otherwise, of an alternator will not suddenly cause the bike to suddenly stop functioning, it will to continue to run using the power in the battery. It would likely to become a safety issue if the failure of the alternator lead to the bike immediately stop functioning, particularly if there was no warning of the alternator failure and if the failure was sudden.

Even with no engine power you can still operate ABS brakes, they are by no means anywhere near as efficient or effective but they can still be operated.

IF you are concerned that it is a safety issue what do you do about the "kill switch" - if that was accidentally knocked at speed that would cut the engine dead but there are no measures in place to prevent that being accidentally switched off.  Fuses - if the main fuses blows that stops the engine...
Well but you don't know the alternator died. You'll keep riding the bike like if the alternator was still charging the bike. The alternator dies, and a couple of minutes later, the bike dies sudenly (like I said there is no way to notice the alternator just died). Although it's not in the exact moment that the alternator fails that the bike shutsdown, the result is the same, because the alternator failing will lead to a sudden and unexpected bike shutdown after a couple of minutes (like I said, there is no way to know the alternator stopped chargin the bike - heck, mine wasn't charging and I was happily doing so me twisties at over 200 kms/h).
With the batery dead (because the alternator stopped charging it), you can operate the brakes, yes, but you cannot operate the ABS (which is eletrical). Taking into consideration the operation of normal brakes, and ABS brakes is exactly the oposite for a safe brake (ABS brakes, just pull the brakes, and let the ABS handle it, non-ABS, pull the brakes softly to avoid a endo), having the ABS disabled in the heat of the moment might lead to a endo. If you wonder what would happen in a bike if someone expecting an ABS brake, braked while the ABS was off, see those Honda safety videos where a bike with sidewheels brakes without ABS. The result would pretty much be the same (they advertise a safety measure, which becomes even more dangerous if it doesn't work when we expect it to, at least, in a bike ithout ABS you just know you have to brake softly every time).

The kill switch "kills the engine", but the bike still keeps energy, the ABS still works, and the lights are still turned on. The kill switch just turns off the engine, nothing more. If you press the button by accident, it's not a factory defective piece, it's just bad operation of the machine by part of the rider. Even if the kill-switch is located in a bad spot, it's a design choice. It was already like that when he bought it. It's very different from a part that suddenly fails without warning, and leaves you stranded.
I think you didn't understand yet, that the alternator doesn't just "kill the engine". It stops feeding the batery energy, which leads to a complete electrical powerdown as soon as the batery dries. Since you don't know the alternator just died, you'll keep riding normally, until the batery itself dries. Fuel Injection will stop, safety lights will turn off, and ABS will not work, because that's all electrical. In the middle of the night, having the lights turn off sudenly can be hazzardous, specially because you can't neither see, nor be seen.

Like I said, it's not just one thing that it endangers. It's many. Engine, brakes, and lights, if you ask me, that's almost every safety mechanism that there is on the bike that I can think of. And all of them, either malfunction (brakes will revert to normal non ABS brakes, without warning, which might lead to bad operation on part of the rider that is expecting to be dealing with ABS brakes, ence applying full force, which in non-ABS brakes is very dangerous), or just don't function at all (engine and lights will shutdown completly) due to a defective alternator giving up.

I remmember driving a rental car that suddenly had an ABS malfunction completly blocking the wheels in an emergency brake (the car skidded sideways, and I had to acelarate to regain traction and straighten the car, most people would probably end up with the car over-turned, because they wouldn't let go of the brakes). I was obviously pissed. I'd even be more pissed if that happened on a bike, where an ABS malfunction would probably mean me kissing the gravel.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: johnstg2 on 18 January, 2009, 01:33:26 PM
I've seen several references here about the very small number of failures of alternators, but when a poll was carried out on this forum the failure rate turned out to be 9.3% amongst respondants. I know the sample was very small so there will be a large margin of error, but if this figure is true then 93 failures per 1000 bikes sold is very substantial indeed.

As regards the safety issue, when my battery was too discharged to start the bike I gave it a jump start so I could drive it home (assuming the battery was charging as I drove home). A few miles from home the engine cut out on a roundabout and I had to push it off the road. Luckily traffic was quiet, but in other circumstances it could have led to something more serious.

Had the bike been fitted with a voltmeter or a "fail to charge" warning light I would have been aware that the battery was flat due to alternator failure and would not have attempted to drive it.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bross on 18 January, 2009, 03:28:02 PM
*Originally Posted by johnstg2 [+]
I've seen several references here about the very small number of failures of alternators, but when a poll was carried out on this forum the failure rate turned out to be 9.3% amongst respondants. I know the sample was very small so there will be a large margin of error, but if this figure is true then 93 failures per 1000 bikes sold is very substantial indeed.

As regards the safety issue, when my battery was too discharged to start the bike I gave it a jump start so I could drive it home (assuming the battery was charging as I drove home). A few miles from home the engine cut out on a roundabout and I had to push it off the road. Luckily traffic was quiet, but in other circumstances it could have led to something more serious.

Had the bike been fitted with a voltmeter or a "fail to charge" warning light I would have been aware that the battery was flat due to alternator failure and would not have attempted to drive it.

That's my winter project for the CBF now, install a voltmeter. Seems like a cheap, simple mod to provide peace of mind, not that I'm riding around worried about it anyway. :shrug;
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: spartan117 on 18 January, 2009, 07:51:32 PM
Freedom of information. If you ask for information under the freedom of information act you have to be very careful on how you phrase the question, as they are only have to answer the specific question you have asked.

For example. Asking for the number of alternators replaced under warranty will give you a different answer to asking for the number of alternators that have been replaced or requested by dealers/garages. Some alternators may have been replaced at the either the owners or dealers expense ie not under warranty. Is this alternator used by any other Honda engine?

Your right of course Tref  :0461:  and my reference to the FOIA "I'd suggest, if you're serious about the subject, approaching Honda UK and using the Freedom of Information Act to obtain the number of alternators replaced/repaired under warranty within the UK as a first step" was meant as an indicator only as opposed to a serious question to Honda so apologies if it has appeared to be misleading.  As a start I'd suggest asking for the total number of alternators repaired or replaced under warranty specific to the CBF100 motorbike and I'd ask for the total number of customer reported faults specific to the CBF1000 alternator.  These should, I would have thought, give a starting point to commence a campaign if that is what is needed.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: ray smith on 18 January, 2009, 09:11:02 PM
when mine went i lost everything immediately as i was halfway across an on ramp to a busy expressway. luckily nothing was coming up the up ramp cos if there had they probably would be looking over their shoulder or in their wing mirror and not at me free wheeling across the junction
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bross on 26 January, 2009, 01:40:16 AM
Just saw this in one of my magazines, looks like a useful little gauge.

http://argusanalyzers.com/battery-monitors/products/bb-sbm12ps.html (http://argusanalyzers.com/battery-monitors/products/bb-sbm12ps.html)

Called the Battery Bug $50
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=argusanalyzers.com/fileadmin/user_upload/site_images/monitors/bb-features-tour-intro.gif)
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Chris on 02 March, 2009, 08:47:54 PM
Hi All
I signed on to this specifically for this problem , quick background , I bought one of the first CBF1000 in the country and have now gone through THREE alternators in 3 years always around Feb/Mar

Given the bike is out of warranty I put a complaint in toHonda and they sorted it (again!) as a goodwill gesture .

I have also found out that Fireblades have a similar problem Honda tell me they changed suppliers in the middle of last year so hopefully this will be the end of the problem . Given the posts I assume this is a fairly common problem ??

Chris
(just bought a CBF125 whilst it's brother is out of action)

Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 02 March, 2009, 08:53:49 PM
3 alternators? You were either very unlucky, or you ride your bike all the way to the other end of Europe every other weekend. Eheh, anyway, we're not sure, all of us who had alternator problems, only had the alternator replaced once...
Which means, we can get alternator problems again (well you had, right?). Sweet...
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Chris on 03 March, 2009, 10:18:47 PM
I do an average of 16000 miles a year , all year round and it's always been after a big snowfall that the alternator has gone , that aside I think the bike is perfect for what I do with it

Spoke to Honda this morning and asked them how big a problem this was and (drumroll)

We are aware that a small number of bikes do have this problem ..... end quote

Don't you love them
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: johnstg2 on 03 March, 2009, 10:23:12 PM
*Originally Posted by Chris [+]
I bought one of the first CBF1000 in the country and have now gone through THREE alternators in 3 years always around Feb/Mar

When I got mine replaced last year I assumed  it was the later, improved version that was fitted. If you're on your fourth does this mean that the upgraded one has a design fault as well?
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Chris on 03 March, 2009, 10:29:53 PM
apparently they changed suppliers 2- 3 weeks after I got the last one , well thats what they say

will let you know in 12 months
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Hustler320e on 11 June, 2009, 11:58:21 AM
 :019:Looks like my 08 cbf1000 has suffered the same fate, Honda of Swindon expect it is the alternator problem and will repair FOC. He did confirm that there is a 5 year cover for this problem on all new bikes registered. I did get 20k out of her before she died on the A303. :232:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: fatharry on 11 June, 2009, 12:52:29 PM
*Originally Posted by Hustler320e [+]
:019:Looks like my 08 cbf1000 has suffered the same fate, Honda of Swindon expect it is the alternator problem and will repair FOC. He did confirm that there is a 5 year cover for this problem on all new bikes registered. I did get 20k out of her before she died on the A303. :232:

Hustler,
Happened to me in May, bike died on the M4..no cold weather or anything proceeding...however  when my alternator was replaced, they changed the flywheel, stator and regulator. Worthwhile making sure all affected parts are tested and changed

Good luck, hope its sorted quickly :001:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: johnstg2 on 12 June, 2009, 08:47:11 PM
Seems a bit disturbing that alternators are still failing on 08 bikes. This problem dates back to 04/05 'blades, so why has it not been rectified (if you'll pardon the pun) by now.

It is, of course posible that the failures are caused by a different problem from the early ones, but you woud have thought that they should have been bulletproof by now.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Trefoil on 13 June, 2009, 12:50:13 AM
At the moment as there have been so few instances with them in the CBF then in these cases it may well be down normal manufacturing quality assurance rather than a design fault.

Tref
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Bifferman on 14 June, 2009, 06:49:00 PM
*Originally Posted by Trefoil [+]
At the moment as there have been so few instances with them in the CBF then in these cases it may well be down normal manufacturing quality assurance rather than a design fault.

Tref

I hope your thinking is right Tref.  Honda Kestrel still deny any knowledge of the 'alternator issues' on CBF1000's.  Mine comes up to the 2 year mark in a couple of weeks but so far, touch timber, mine is doing the biz.

Andy

 :149:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Crypto on 17 June, 2009, 08:38:50 PM
Just another one to add to the list. CBF1000 A7 (late 2006) less than 16k. Good run out in North Wales, spot of lunch with my beloved pillion, all ready to remount, pressed starter button, clicks and whirls.... Nothing. Replaced battery, got half way home bike stopped, nice man in a breakdown pickup got me home.

Rang local Honda dealer, no known faults on regulator rectifier or stator. Out of curiosity priced regulator rectifier 272.22 + VAT (Ebay! I thought). Currently waiting for the return of the generator/stator (original lightly toasted) from Electrex World. These guys have a techical page for troubleshooting charging faults on http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/pdfs/Troubleshooting-3P-PMG-&-RR.pdf

Hopefully the guarenteed replacement/repair (not sure which yet) will have the CBF out in the sunshine once more.

Crypto
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Sonic on 17 June, 2009, 10:24:54 PM
About 3 years ago the rectifier failed on my VFR800 1999 model also a known problem. Bought a  Honda replacement from David Silver 52.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Bifferman on 18 June, 2009, 06:52:21 AM
IMO both Honda and at least some of the dealers are blatently lying about this, there are simply to many alternator/rectifier issues for them not to know about it.  There was a survey on here a while back and of the respondents I think it was about 4% (may have been 5%) had suffered this problem and that to me suggests there potentially is a problem.

Andy

 :149:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bross on 18 June, 2009, 03:53:21 PM
regulator/rectifier issues have plagued Honda since the early 80s, or possible even earlier but that's as far back as I know about. A simple google search for:
"honda motorcycle regulator rectifier problems" 78,900
"kawasaki motorcycle regulator rectifier problems" 42,300
"yamaha motorcycle regulator rectifier problems" 6,520
"suzuki motorcycle regulator rectifier problems" 7,270

I'm surprised by the kawi number as I've owned several kawi's and frequent a kawi forum and haven't heard of any issues like we do about our Honda's, but it's pretty darn obvious by the numbers that Honda's experience an unusually high number of problems.

I knew this going in to the purchase of the CBF just like I was aware of the number of final drive failures on BMWs when I bought my RT. Not to be any kind of defense for Honda (or BMW) but from their point of view, why do the majority of their bikes go very long miles without any problems??? I don't think it's an inherent design flaw in either case but simply boils down to poor manufacturing at some point. Most riders get a "good" bike that gives them faithful trouble free service for many years, while other riders, not so lucky, get the Monday morning after bike that gets a duff alternator or poorly setup final drive (in the BMW case). I rode my BMW RT for 34,000 trouble free kms, and so far no issues with the CBF.

Doesn't make it any more palatable for someone with a failure but in this day and age (of the internet), it's pretty hard to NOT go into a bike buying experience without knowing all the niggles about a bike. To me the reg/rec is an easily replaceable part, if we were talking about main bearings, thrown rods, or cam surfaces then maybe I'd be concerned.

I have read about all the battery failures etc. and invested in a Battery Bug to monitor the battery health, this will also point out incorrect charging so I am confident I will get some warning as to a reg/rec failure and that has eased my mind about this issue on the CBF. Much more so than never really knowing if my final drive was going to blow up or catch on fire on the RT as they tended to fail fairly quickly to most with little to no prior warning.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 18 June, 2009, 07:16:10 PM
I don't completly agree. On this day and age, it's still hard to come by this kind of information which the manufacturers do everything in their power to hide. Like it was said, Honda said to me as well, that they don't know of any alternator issues with CBFs... Unless everyone in this forum is lying (which was what Honda sugested in their letter to me), then they do know, they just don't want to admit it. And that is plain lying. Unaceptable.

Now, bross says in this day and age, it's hard to buy a bike without knowing the potential problems we might face. I bought my CBF the month it was made available to the public. That makes me a damn eager customer of Honda, and a stupid one as well. I should have let them betatest the bike with their first costumers (like they did with me) before comitting to it. Heck, seccond thought, scratch that, I should have bought a Yamaha. At least my godfather knows everyone at Yamaha.

Good costumer service is rare. Very rare. Honestly it's not the hidding that really gets on my nerves. It's the blatant lying. They could spin the words in their favor, but at least own up to the fact that some CBFs are having such troubles. Leaving me bikeless for over a month, and THEN telling me they do not know of such issues, is just plain wrong. Comparing it to other recent failures I've had with home appliances I get pissed that my ~10.000 Euros motorbike, gets a worse costumer support, than my 400 euros videogame console. My XBox 360 gave me the 3 RROD. Phoned MS, next day they had a van picking the xbox up. A week later I had a new XBox on my hands, 1 month of free xbox live membership for the troubles, and all my MS points refunded due to licensing issues (without revoquing the online licenses, which basicly meant hey doubled my "MS cash"). It's a bummer that in this day and age, some of the stuff we buy with our hard earned money is going to be defective. It's the price we pay for cheaper products I supose. Less quality checks. But when we are left hanging with the defective product, at least have the decensy to replace it ASAP.

The way Honda handled my case, was a disgrace to their name, and even worse, they left me with the sensation that if I ever get another Honda motorbike, and I end up with a defective product, I might end up screwed, since Honda has no problem in lying, and will not admit to the problems on their bikes. By covering their asses, they most likely lost a client to Yamaha. Well, more than one, my friend got her license, and is buying a Fazer.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: McNabb on 18 June, 2009, 07:32:31 PM
It doesn't sound like your case was handled properly CyberClaw.  Which sucks, it does look bad on Honda.  The shame of it is that it is not unique to Honda, all of the manufacturers have these types of situations.  Good on you for switching manufacturers, it is the right thing to do given how you were treated.  Just remember that there is someone at Yamaha that had the exact same experience you did and are now buying a Honda because of it. 

In the end, customer service is still lacking in most areas with most manufacturers.  It is easy for them to do what they did in this case (play dumb, it is not a problem etc.) and get away with it.  All we can do is continue fighting them and rewarding good customer service.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: CyberClaw on 18 June, 2009, 07:53:01 PM
That's not true. There is good costumer service. Specially thanks to the internet, bad costumer service is being erradicated, because people quickyl understand they are not the only ones with that problem. I gave the case of my XBox 360, because I'm on my 3rd XBox right now, and although I understand there is always a risk of an electronical device being defective, at least MS owned up to their mistakes, and when they replace an XBox, you get a 3 year warranty from the day you got your replacement.

And then it comes down to local policies. The awnser I got from Honda Portugal, left me with a distinct idea that they are all nobs. Sugesting that everyone posting in this forums, with the exact same problem I have was lying, just shows that not only they have little to no respect for their costumers (punishing early adopters like myself), but they also are complete morrons who have no idea what bad internet press can do - they seem completly unaware that costumers that get bad service will come to the very same forums that "publicised" their bike, and tell the tales of the horrible way they were treated.

Keep in mind Honda DID give me the alternator. If they hadn't, I'd go to consumer defense with the case (DECO). I'm pretty sure if this alternator dies in an untimely manner as well, I'll find a way for them to give me another. It's my right as a consumer and their costumer, and I'll rant as long as the product does not meet decent standarts, or they refund me completly for the bike.

The problem is, I can't trust the brand this way. Not with this bike, not with any other. How can I rest assured, if the product I bought might be potentially defective (a risk we take with any product we buy), but I have to loose time and patience battling morrons to get a rightfull replacement - a replacement I know they've done for free all over Europe thanks to the internet and this forum in particular - and a replacement they say they have no knowledge of, and that very much likely, "the internets is just making stuff up again". Oooooh, them internets, they never learn.

The time of secrets is over. With the internet it's impossible to hide anything. Lying about it just makes you look like a morron or a liar (possibly a morron liar in the worst case scenario).
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bross on 18 June, 2009, 08:31:14 PM
I think the problem now a days is our litigious society. Again, I'm NOT defending Honda or any manufacturer but it's just the way I see it. *If* Honda was to admit there was a problem, then they'd be open to lawsuits. BMW behave and act in exactly the same way. They have never admitted to a problem with their servo assisted brakes, nor with their final drives BUT they do have a pattern of going the extra mile for most customers, even replacing parts etc. out of warranty. I believe it's this back door, behind the scenes, way that the manufacturers have been forced into by the bloody lawyers (with apologies to any lawyers on here).

We just had a recent flood in our brand new house due to a faulty pump part and you should see the finger pointing and dancing that 4 insurance companies are doing at the moment. Nobody wants to pay, and nobody wants to blink first. What ever happened to just doing what's right and fair? Oh yeah, the last guy that did that got sued into oblivion.  :087:

PS sorry for your troubles, I know it's hard to gain confidence in a bike after a failure.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: batespe on 29 June, 2009, 05:36:42 PM
My CBF1000 just hit 18k miles and the stator(part of alternator) burnt out - seems to be a very common fault - luckily I am still in the warranty period and so was fixed foc.

Would have cost me a lot of money as it took them 9 hours to correct. It turned out the rectifier regulator also packed up.

It does say in the service book that if a component fails outside of warranty Honda will consider fixing the fault foc although I wouldn't want to have to put this to the test.

When I get to 36k I will definitely be getting worried is it going to go again? Does anyone know if the replacements are the same as factory fitted alternators/Stators/regulators?
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Bifferman on 29 June, 2009, 08:25:58 PM
NEED A RESPONSE FROM ALL THOSE WHO HAVE HAD AN ALTERNATOR/RECTIFIER FRITZ OUT.

EDIT:  Have started a new thread cos I think this IS important and VOSA are willing to help IF we can demonstrate a safety issue.  Apart from tyres, Insurance and fuel consumption this seems to be one of the more often reported issues.

VOSA may well be interested in the failure of the alternator/rectifier IF it can be viewed as being a safety issue.

The first thing we need to ascertain is what actually happens if the alternator /regulator has blown.  Is this something that then only manifests itself when you next start the bike or :005: does the bike actually stop running as the battery looses its voltage.  If the latter then VOSA's interest would be whether there is any warning of a bike stopping and whether it could come to a halt without warning in, say, the outside lane of a motorway.  That WOULD tickle their interest.

If we can answer that first please we can see if there is something actually here for VOSA, who take their role in life very seriously indeed.  Answers on a postcard please or better still please post exactly what happened here.

If there is sufficient commonality we can get into the next stage of detail for VOSA.  The more recent issues we can record the easier it will be for VOSA.  One hurdle at a time eh.

Andy

 :149:

ps.  I will start a new topic if it is easier but it seems to me that we are getting a lot more of this type of failure than is comfortable and, worse, it could be dangerous and is expensive unless either fixed under warranty or Honda are being kind.

EDIT:  Have started a new thread cos I think this IS important and VOSA are willing to help IF we can demonstrate a safety issue.  Apart from tyres, Insurance and fuel consumption this seems to be one of the more often reported issues.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: badg3r on 05 July, 2009, 12:24:15 AM
Mine has just gone and is in the shop to be fixed, what wording did you guys use when contacting Honda UK?  I suspect this will be an expensive one and if as you say Honda is willing to cover part or all of the cost of this apparent design flaw it could be useful to know.  Much obliged for any information.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Bifferman on 05 July, 2009, 01:04:27 PM
Yet another.  Bit of a bummer that.  Badg3r, how old is your bike and what mileage?  Can you keep us in the loop as to exactly what was done to remedy AND also any comments/thoughts from the techie who did the work as to why it occurred.

Andy

 :149:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: badg3r on 05 July, 2009, 09:55:14 PM
Is a 2006 model 34k miles, will let you know.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: badg3r on 06 July, 2009, 10:28:53 AM
According to Brian Gray this morning now they've got it open it appears to be my stator coil? (Part cost 188)  Not sure if thats the same thing.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Bifferman on 06 July, 2009, 11:13:59 AM
Badg3r

Ask them why it may have occurred and what Honda themselves have to say about this.  I did a search last night for 'Alternator' and went through all the threads for crapped out alternators and came across 25 people who have had alternators replaced and of those three peeps have had their alternator replaced twice :005: - that makes 28 replaced alternators on this forum alone that I noticed and I think it would be quite reasonable to believe that there are certainly more than that which are either not reported or where people do not belong to this forum.

Andy

 :149:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: twizit on 08 July, 2009, 09:26:07 PM
Looks like I will be making it 29  :232:

Mine is an 08 plate GT, just over a year old to me and on about 7,300 miles.  Never had the slightest hint of a starting problem, and that includes a winter of daily commuting.  Rode into work as normal this morning, went to leave at 6.30pm this evening and the battery was having none of it.  Half turned over once then nothing.

AA were with me in 45 mins on Honda assist.  Battery was showing 11.75 volts, so not knackered but not enough to start the bike.  Initially on jump starting it was ok, but 5 mins later no go and it wouldn't stay on.  Looks like a knackered alternator / regulator.

Thankfully the AA recovered me back to Surbiton and the bike is now sat with the optimate on - am hoping I can get enough into the battery to get me started in the morning and as far as my local dealer, which is about 1 mile away!  I'll update on progress when I know more...
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: tosh23 on 09 July, 2009, 01:03:55 AM
So let me get this right....Out of all cbf users on this web site 25 have had problems.....how many users are on this site???
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: twizit on 09 July, 2009, 08:35:44 AM
Somewhere just under 2,000 users tosh, which makes 29 reported problems about 1.5% of that population.  For a bike that's only been around for 3 years, and when I wouldn't expect the alternator to be a regular problem, I call that a significant proportion.

Also bear in mind that not everyone who's a member on here and might have had a similar problem will have posted it on here.

In any case, making light of what is increasingly becoming a common complaint isn't going to help.  Feedback seems to be that Honda are trying to ignore the issue so better we stick together on this if it continues to be an issue.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Bifferman on 09 July, 2009, 08:43:18 AM
*Originally Posted by tosh23 [+]
So let me get this right....Out of all cbf users on this web site 25 have had problems.....how many users are on this site???

Tosh

Just under 2000 registered and this seems to be after BB has purged lots of onlookers who don't contribute anything BUT still leaves lots who just lurk and probably don't own a Biffer anyway - fair play they might one day.

With Twizit we are now up to 27 individuals and 31 alternators from our relatively small bunch of enthusiats here.  HONDA pull your finger out - you have a problem - come into the real world (like the politicians :087: :087: :005: :087: - fcuck me what a load of arses - IMO). 

 :149:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bross on 09 July, 2009, 04:34:58 PM
*Originally Posted by twizit [+]
Somewhere just under 2,000 users tosh, which makes 29 reported problems about 1.5% of that population.  For a bike that's only been around for 3 years, and when I wouldn't expect the alternator to be a regular problem, I call that a significant proportion.

Also bear in mind that not everyone who's a member on here and might have had a similar problem will have posted it on here.

In any case, making light of what is increasingly becoming a common complaint isn't going to help.  Feedback seems to be that Honda are trying to ignore the issue so better we stick together on this if it continues to be an issue.
And there's the problem. Large corporations have teams of number crunchers to sit around all day and do nothing but figure out complicated things like this. They do the risk analysis and if it's cheaper to ignore the problem, than to fix it, then you know they're going to ignore it. BMW do it with their final drive failures, Buell with their rear bearing failures (at least Buell have changed their bearings). With the small percentage of bikes that this happens to, as compared to the thousands and thousands of bikes that it doesn't happen to, it's cheaper for Honda to ignore it. And lets face it, Honda are the *only* ones with any accurate numbers, no amount of internet polls are going to produce any meaningful numbers. As brought up, there's too many variables: lurkers, people who don't use the internet etc.

Honda have had this problem as long as I've ever known anything about bikes, so lets say 20+ years and nothing has ever been done about it. Honda make crap reg/rectifiers, they also have headshake problems in: GoldWing, ST, CBF but still continue to use flat instead of tapered bearings. Why we wonder? I think mainly because for every failure experienced by one rider, there's thousands or hundreds of thousands of riders on Honda's who never experience these failures. Doesn't minimize or make it any better for the rider who has the failure but just a fact of life from Honda's point of view.

I knew about Honda's reg/rec issues going into this purchase, just like I knew about BMWs final drive and key antenna failures when I bought my RT. Frankly I never *really* worried these issues and just rode the bike (RT) and that's what I'm doing with the CBF.

I have the wobble on my CBF, but just adjusted my chain for the first time and it was out of alignment, so straitened that out and the wobble isn't completely gone but barely there at all now.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: twizit on 09 July, 2009, 05:07:55 PM
Hey bross - all valid points, and to be honest I never expect ANY purchase to be perfect...


... but it doesn't stop me being a tad  :232: :157: :232: for a little while when my year old bike won't start  :016:

It's life, stuff happens and right now I'm just getting on with it.  Biffer is in the dealer and they've sorted me out with a CBF600 loaner so I'm not too unhappy - i just have a bit more hassle in my life right now than I'd ideally like!

That said.... it shouldn't stop us trying to get Mr Honda to do something about the problem.  Might not get us anywhere, but trying is just a part of life is it not  :084:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bross on 09 July, 2009, 06:09:59 PM
*Originally Posted by twizit [+]
That said.... it shouldn't stop us trying to get Mr Honda to do something about the problem.  Might not get us anywhere, but trying is just a part of life is it not  :084:
For sure, and as I said it sucks when you're one of the riders who experiences a failure. Hope the dealer gets it sorted soon, and just think how much better your 1000 is going to feel after a few days on the 600.  :016:

And if it was my bike that failed, I'd be yelling as loud as or louder than any one else.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: twizit on 09 July, 2009, 09:33:41 PM
*Originally Posted by bross [+]
and just think how much better your 1000 is going to feel after a few days on the 600.  :016:

600 actually goes quite well when it's given enough pursuasion   :164:........

be nice to get the black beast 1000 back tho.....
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: amber on 10 July, 2009, 10:05:46 PM
Oh well, Here's another one to add to the pile of dead alternators. The only problem is that Honda UK have run out of them and so its another week till they arrive. 12months and 19k. It was fine in in the morning for 70miles then all of a sudden nothing.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bross on 10 July, 2009, 10:19:40 PM
Wonder if my "Battery Bug" will warn me of impending doom...

https://www.cbf1000.com/index.php/topic,6089.0 (https://www.cbf1000.com/index.php/topic,6089.0)

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=faithcottage.smugmug.com/photos/549350858_imajK-L.jpg)
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: tosh23 on 12 July, 2009, 05:32:56 AM
I was wondering if anyone from another site lets say France/Germany/Italy  cbf forum has had similar problems. Seems to me the hotter they get ..hotter country quicker meltdown...just a thought....also what about a little fan to cool it  IE computers get hot and a fan comes on for the ECU how about a fan for this ???? I'm probably talking crap but keep it going boys and girls . :211:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: moto on 09 August, 2009, 11:39:13 PM
 :232:

add another suspect alternator!

Mine is off to the dealer tomorrow if I can get it there as the battery is loosing it's charge while riding!

There are few things in life that get you down but an unreliable bike is right up there.

I'll let you know the outcome

Moto
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: cooltourercbf on 10 August, 2009, 05:34:56 PM
 :mfrlol:

Hi guys! I've not been on the website for a while! My alternator failed on my Biffer in October 2008 and was replaced within a few days.
My friend David had his go when he was third man on his observer training behind me! He waited a month before he got his Biffer back. He tells me that Honda have actually changed the supplier of the alternators in order to resolve the current problem.
Anyway, I rode my Biffer to Austria and back in June last year and had no problem then with it!
I know it is not good the alternator breaks down but I am keeping my Biffer and keeping my faith in Honda reliability and so far the replacement alternator has not let me down.

 :300:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: spuggy on 14 August, 2009, 10:49:21 AM
does anyone know exactly when the uprated parts where fitted to new biffers (maybe a V.I number cut off point)  :148:
i picked up my new GT   3 weeks ago and hope this problem has been resolved :084:
news like this kinda knocks the shine off a new bike which is otherwise TOTALLY FANTASTIC!!!  :156:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: uysahin on 19 August, 2009, 07:00:36 AM
 After 2 years and 12 K kilometers , it doesn't fire although I bought an optimate and charged it once a week. Gave some signs of it a month ago it is why I bought optimate. I ride it for commuting mostly high rev highway ride (50 km) everyday and no  electrical  accesories. I believe hondas really have problems with electricity since my old africa twin suffered the same.
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bumpy on 20 August, 2009, 11:23:51 PM
Early in this thread it was claimed that Honda has increased the guarantee perion on the CBF1000 alternator to seven years. Is this the case?
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: uysahin on 21 August, 2009, 12:13:18 PM
ok here is my update. Went to honda service 2 days ago, he checked if there is enough voltage coming fr alternator with a "mini testmate" when idling it is under 14 V (around 13-13.5)  but if you rev it ( say 2K ) then it reaches to normal 14-14.5V...what can I say he is the technician and the diagnose is "death battery" as a result. I told him its strange that bike was okey after a 6 month winterization (regularly charged) but went off when regularly working in high revs everyday...anyway will change the battery and see what happens.
 By the way the voltage when iddling must be around 14V isn't it?
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Jumbo on 21 August, 2009, 12:58:03 PM
Hi, uysahin.
Those alternator readings are good.
All we can say is that at time of checking your alternator output was in the normal range.
Batteries can go intermittent and have been known to suddenly give up without warning, irrespective of age or mileage.
Yes, replacing your battery is the way to go, for now.

This unfortunately, does not mean you will have no alternator problems in the future. This issue is still open.
I'm not happy about that....

Jumbo
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bross on 22 August, 2009, 03:00:09 AM
Maybe we don't have a problem with our alternators, reg/rec after all. just read about Dave Zien and his million mile Harley. The bike was 18 years old and he replaced the stator 17 times! That's basically once a year.

click the link below the pics for the large print edition if needed...
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=faithcottage.smugmug.com/photos/626491812_aUYnt-L.jpg)
http://faithcottage.smugmug.com/photos/626491812_aUYnt-O.jpg (http://faithcottage.smugmug.com/photos/626491812_aUYnt-O.jpg)

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=faithcottage.smugmug.com/photos/626491948_M8ryU-L.jpg)
http://faithcottage.smugmug.com/photos/626491948_M8ryU-O.jpg (http://faithcottage.smugmug.com/photos/626491948_M8ryU-O.jpg)
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Breeze on 22 August, 2009, 03:06:19 PM
 :002: That sounds an awful lot , Bross, but if you look at the mileage He`d have had ten times that on ours , His did around 59,000 miles on average for each one , with our machines  about 5,000 seems the average, hope nobody takes the CBF to a million miles . That`ll be 200 Alternators. :mfrlol:
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bumpy on 25 August, 2009, 10:55:28 PM
Sorry to repeat this guys, but the question seems to have gotten lost amid the subsequent debate.

Early in this thread it was claimed that Honda has increased the guarantee perion on the CBF1000 alternator to seven years. Is this the case?
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Bifferman on 26 August, 2009, 09:59:53 AM
FACT - NO !

The current position appears to be that dealers have been told by Honda to make a claim for any fault under the 2 year warranty and it should just go through - as long as you have not done anything daft to effect the warranty.

Outside the 2 years Honda will still look at sympathetically on an individual basis.

The fact is Honda know there is a problem but will not do a recall (unless forced by VOSA - I am working on a presentation to VOSA) and so far at least will not formally extend the warranty on the CBF,

Take some heart though that the warranty was not formally extended on the 94/5 Blade in the UK (it was in the USA) but Honda are continuing to look after blade owners (Parts only or labour + parts I don't know) the last that I heard of being only 2 months ago. 

Andy

 :149:

Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: bumpy on 26 August, 2009, 10:14:38 AM
Thanks Andy

Looking to order my first CBF1000 shortly and wanted to cover all the bases.

I have to say, reading through this forum, that problems with the CBF1000 seem relatively few (mainly alternators and headstock bearings).

This is in sharp contrast to the BMW forum where the issues with the 1200GS which I just sold are almost frightening. BMW have 'compensated' by offering extended warranties at about 350 per annum. Is anything similar available from Honda or other sources?
Title: Re: ALTERNATOR
Post by: Bifferman on 26 August, 2009, 10:41:33 AM
YES but at a price.

The best I have come across is the AA Breakdown Repair Cover http://www.theaa.com/breakdownrepaircover/index.html

Andy

 :149: