CBF1000

CBF1000 => Lighting, Electrical, and Wiring => Topic started by: BigGinger on 10 October, 2020, 08:17:48 PM

Title: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: BigGinger on 10 October, 2020, 08:17:48 PM
I had a 30 mile journey home and just as I pulled on to the drive, with the dash fading and abs light flashing, the bike cut out.

Iíve since charged the battery and had a mechanic test the voltage of the battery when running. 12.8v on idle and 13.4 I think when up to 4000 revs. Iíve ridden to and from work today without the bike dying but it could just be a matter of time?

He was so busy and I couldnít have him do anymore than that this morning. Do you guys have any advice or knowledge that could help? Iíve bought a new battery and a multimeter. I should have both tomorrow. If itís not the battery thatís the issue then Iíll send it back but I donít know how to go about testing the stator and rectifier.
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Shed on 10 October, 2020, 10:05:09 PM
Load test your old battery and see what you get, info here:

https://www.cbf1000.com/index.php/topic,22633.msg258720.html#msg258720

Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Art on 11 October, 2020, 09:50:50 AM
The myth is that flashing ABS warning light + flat battery + engine cutting out = failed stator but that's just the myth. The reality is the ABS warning light is flashing a Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) which needs to be retrieved. If its still flashing look carefully and you will see it is probably flashing six long flashes of 1.3 second duration followed by one short flash of half a second duration. This indicates that DTC 61 is present which simple means that the battery level of charge is or was too low for the ABS module to function correctly. Read more about how to read ABS DTC's here (https://www.cbf1000.com/index.php/topic,22757.0.htm)

Sound advice from Shed, test the battery to ensure its in good condition and is fully charged and holding 12.5v or more, then you can do a quick charging system output test as follows. With the headlamp on high beam, hazard lights flashing and the engine running at 5,000 RPM the voltage across the battery terminals should be between 13.5v and 14.5v, if the voltage is less than 13v suspect a stator or stator circuit fault, if the voltage is more than 15v the Regulator/Rectifier is faulty.

For more detailed stator and regulator/rectifier testing download and follow these generic guides from ElectroSport

Motorcycle charging system fault finding flow chart (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1091/5694/files/fault-finding-diagram.pdf?235929069374954073)

Regulator/rectifier diode testing guide (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1091/5694/files/diode-testing-guide.pdf?235929069374954073)

Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: BigGinger on 11 October, 2020, 10:27:09 AM
Thank you both very much. I should have the new battery and multimeter today so if my current battery is faulty, I could be all set. On the other hand, it could be damaged due to a fault in the charging system. Knowing my luck itís a stator and rectifier and battery. I shall report back.
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: BigGinger on 11 October, 2020, 05:27:02 PM
So I tested the old and new battery. Same result on each.

Over 13v when the ignition is off. 12.8 when itís on and engine is running. Under 12.8 when dip beam, main beam and hazards are on, and revving to 5k. 13.1 - 13.2v when just dip beam is on and revving to 5k.

Iím not sure what to make of this. Advice please, gentlemen?
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Shed on 11 October, 2020, 08:59:43 PM
Your charging voltage of 13.1v - 13.2v seems a bit low to me, this looks more like trickle charging or minimal charging. I'd be expecting more around the 14V mark at 5000rpm for a normal charging rate.

That aside for a moment, what was the result of the load test on the old battery? Have you load tested the new battery?
What is the lowest voltage it dropped to when you first turned over the engine? (Like demonstrated in that video).

A charging voltage to a battery and the actual ability of a battery to hold a charge are two different things. Also, never assume just because the battery is 'new' in a nice shiny new box, it is actually in sound condition. The drop voltage test sets a good baseline for overall battery condition estimation - for both your old & the 'new' battery.

Also, have you done the basics of ensuring all the wiring connections are sound & clean? Block connectors, earth/grounds? Dirty corroded/corroding wires can make all the difference. I'll always start with checking the really easy stuff first!

Art's post has a couple of links for further testing.




Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Bikermike1 on 11 October, 2020, 09:08:07 PM
Found this link very helpful when I was having charging system problems. https://vfrworld.com/threads/how-to-fix-common-regulator-stator-failures.39277/


Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: BigGinger on 11 October, 2020, 09:09:28 PM
I actually completely skipped the step of testing the battery when turning the engine over. 13.1 - 13.2 is low and Iím not happy with it.

I topped up the new battery on my optimate lithium charger and I didnít get any warning lights. It charged to full within a couple hours.

Iím not inclined to say the stator is knackered and I donít believe the rectifier is dead either. Maybe the stator is beginning to let go. Iím not expert so At this point Iím just frustrated with a lack of an answer as to why it died after an hour of riding.

Electrexworld has a stator for £114 so itís not the end of the world if thatís whatís wrong. I just donít want to waste money on something I donít actually need.
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Art on 11 October, 2020, 10:30:29 PM
I'm with Shed the charging voltage is a little low, next logical step is to check the charging system wiring. Select the 20v DC range on the multimeter and with the engine idling at 1,200 RPMÖ

Connect the black DMM probe to the battery positive terminal and the red DMM probe to the red output cable of the regulator/rectifier. Expect less than 0.2v. If greater than 0.2v disconnect, clean and check all terminals, connections and fuses in the positive cable from the RR to the battery.

Connect the red DMM probe to the battery negative terminal and the black DMM probe to the green output cable of the regulator/rectifier. Expect less than 0.2v. If greater than 0.2v disconnect, clean and check all terminals, connections and chassis ground points in the negative cable from the RR to the battery. Alternatively you could run a ground cable from the RR (green cable) direct to the battery negative terminal.

Fix any faults and re-test the charging system output again.


Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: BigGinger on 11 October, 2020, 11:19:52 PM
Great advice. Thank you for going into detail. Again, Iíll report back with my findings. Hopefully itís a simple fix.
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Shed on 11 October, 2020, 11:30:45 PM
*Originally Posted by BigGinger [+]
Iím not inclined to say the stator is knackered and I donít believe the rectifier is dead either. Maybe the stator is beginning to let go. Iím not expert so At this point Iím just frustrated with a lack of an answer as to why it died after an hour of riding.
Electrexworld has a stator for £114 so itís not the end of the world if thatís whatís wrong. I just donít want to waste money on something I donít actually need.

As Art says above, you need logical steps. A bit of patience! It is frustrating, but try not to be tempted with this, that, and the other, or rushed guesswork, otherwise you could be playing an expensive game of 'parts-darts'. The charging system is exactly that, a system. One thing effects another, effects another and so on. Test each part of it methodically, otherwise you may find yourself replacing what is actually a symptom, and the not replacing what is actually the cause.

I think you're definitely on the undercharging side. Clean, inspect all the wiring as you go along testing it. Get the RR off, clean up the ground points while you are there. Poor connections give misleading readings. Clean up. Retest.  We'll get it sussed. :028:
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Shed on 11 October, 2020, 11:35:06 PM
*Originally Posted by Bikermike1 [+]
Found this link very helpful when I was having charging system problems. https://vfrworld.com/threads/how-to-fix-common-regulator-stator-failures.39277/

Nice one Mike, I'll have a read in there and see what comes out in the wash.

Although, as there's 21 pages to sift through,  :035: It'll be tomorrow  :028:
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: BigGinger on 15 October, 2020, 07:00:53 PM
Hey guys. Havenít yet looked at possible cause of my problem but Iím not working this weekend so Iím sure Iíll get round to it.

Question - I believe the alternator burns out due to lack of oil to cool it down. If I were to use thinner oil, would it help at all? Not so thin as to be bad for the engine, but thinner than 10W40...
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: angelin on 15 October, 2020, 07:33:42 PM

the cbf generator has little power and is under dimensioned for the current loads fuel pump fuel system efi headlights then heated fan grips surely exceed 330 w. and the engine revolutions are not always at 5000 rpm and so the generator heats up. and burns. I think it's just for that. :431:
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: BigGinger on 15 October, 2020, 07:41:46 PM
SIGHHHH

I love the bike. I love the torque. I love that it carries a pillion without skipping a beat. Iíve only had it since late June and the last owner had fitted a new regulator and stator within the last 5-10,000 miles at my best recollection. Iím still not sure whatís wrong with the charging system but if itís either one of those, thatís just not good enough. I may well end up selling it. Any recommendations for what could replace it? Keep in mind Iím 26 and insurance is looking for any reason to rob me blind.


This weekend Iíll see what the voltage reads on the battery when starting the engine and Iíll check the resistance from the stator and find out how to test a regulator.
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: angelin on 15 October, 2020, 08:00:08 PM

check the 3 wires coming out of the stator that they are not grounded check the continuity of the 3 stator wires between them that the resistance is the same check the battery ground and regulator ground that it is good check the cable that goes from the regulator to the battery in good condition and that it makes a good contact. then check the cable coming from the ignition lock positive that you must have attention when you turn on the key +15 if everything is regular probably defective regulator :405:
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Art on 16 October, 2020, 07:35:35 AM
*Originally Posted by angelin [+]
the cbf generator has little power and is under dimensioned for the current loads fuel pump fuel system efi headlights then heated fan grips surely exceed 330 w. and the engine revolutions are not always at 5000 rpm and so the generator heats up. and burns. I think it's just for that. :431:

The Charging System doesn't work like that. The battery is the key component that supplies the electrics, it is the buffer or reserve tank of the charging system as well as the weakest link. The stator output is 344W for the SC58 (MKI) or 350W for the SC64 (MKII) and even at low RPM it should be able to keep pace with the electrical loading on the battery. To test your particular set up of accessories and add ons turn everything on and leave the engine on tickover until the fan kicks in. Then using a multimeter check the voltage across the battery terminals while slowly increasing the engine RPM and noting at what RPM the charging voltage reaches 13.2v.
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: BigGinger on 16 October, 2020, 07:41:28 AM
Am I looking for 13.2v because thatís what I got last time? Iíd be a lot more comfortable with 14v or so. Iím not riding around at 3-5k revs constantly, just because Iím paranoid Iíll end with a dead battery if I donít.
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Art on 16 October, 2020, 07:47:57 AM
*Originally Posted by angelin [+]
check the 3 wires coming out of the stator that they are not grounded check the continuity of the 3 stator wires between them that the resistance is the same check the battery ground and regulator ground that it is good check the cable that goes from the regulator to the battery in good condition and that it makes a good contact. then check the cable coming from the ignition lock positive that you must have attention when you turn on the key +15 if everything is regular probably defective regulator :405:

Putting some meat on the bones or just a translation...
Stator coil resistance between each pairing of the three yellow cables (stator coils) from the stator should be equal and in the range 0.1Ω to 1.0Ω.
Voltage drop between battery negative to regulator/rectifier green cable should be less than 0.2v
Voltage drop between battery positive to regulator/rectifier red cable should be less than 0.2v
If the regulator/rectifier out put voltage is greater than 15v it is defective
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: BigGinger on 16 October, 2020, 07:53:39 AM
Would it need to produce 15v across the battery terminals? Thatís the bit Iím confused about. At no point have I seen anything that high.
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Art on 16 October, 2020, 07:56:42 AM
*Originally Posted by BigGinger [+]
Am I looking for 13.2v because thatís what I got last time? Iíd be a lot more comfortable with 14v or so. Iím not riding around at 3-5k revs constantly, just because Iím paranoid Iíll end with a dead battery if I donít.

Because a 12v battery is made up of 6 x 2.2v cells therefore at 13.2v the battery is neither charging nor discharging.

You don't really want to see a 15v output from the regulator/rectifier which is borderline cook the battery territory. Around 14.2v is where you want to be from about 2,500 RPM
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Art on 16 October, 2020, 08:24:07 AM
Did you check the charging system wiring loom?

As posted previously select the 20v DC range on the multimeter and with the engine idling at 1,200 RPMÖ

Connect the black DMM probe to the battery positive terminal and the red DMM probe to the red output cable of the regulator/rectifier. Expect less than 0.2v. If greater than 0.2v disconnect, clean and check all terminals, connections and fuses in the positive cable from the RR to the battery.

Connect the red DMM probe to the battery negative terminal and the black DMM probe to the green output cable of the regulator/rectifier. Expect less than 0.2v. If greater than 0.2v disconnect, clean and check all terminals, connections and chassis ground points in the negative cable from the RR to the battery. Alternatively you could run a ground cable from the RR (green cable) direct to the battery negative terminal.

Fix any faults and re-test the charging system output again.

If it helps to put your mind at rest the last time I tested my charging system I got the following results which are typical for the CBF1000

Battery initial level of charge 12.5v
Ignition on, headlamp on for 2 minutes voltage drops to 11.8v
Cold cranking 5 seconds on full throttle (disables fuel system) voltage drops to 10.7v
Load test idling at 1,200 RPM headlamp, hazards and fan on voltage drops to 11.8v
Load test at 2,500 RPM headlamp, hazards and fan on battery voltage rises to 13.4v
Charging System output, no battery loading, test at 2,500 RPM battery voltage rises to 14.2v
Charging System output, no battery loading, test at 5,000 RPM battery voltage remains at 14.2v


Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: angelin on 16 October, 2020, 09:47:46 AM

hello yes to reason regarding the battery that should make up for the generator but if the current is more that which comes out than that which is produced with all the loads on. on my mk2 I did 100000 km with original alternator. I have not installed accessories that could jeopardize the recharge. because the more charged the more the generator becomes overheated
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: Art on 16 October, 2020, 11:28:47 AM
*Originally Posted by angelin [+]
hello yes to reason regarding the battery that should make up for the generator but if the current is more that which comes out than that which is produced with all the loads on. on my mk2 I did 100000 km with original alternator. I have not installed accessories that could jeopardize the recharge. because the more charged the more the generator becomes overheated

Again not quite how the Charging System works. The stator (generator) works constantly producing up to 40v AC output across its three phases depending on engine RPM. The regulator/rectifier then converts that output to vDC and caps it off at around 14.2v DC which it then feeds to the battery according to battery loading with any surplus output being shunted to ground.
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: angelin on 16 October, 2020, 12:13:40 PM

340w: 13 volts nominal = 26 amps. if you disconnect one fuse at a time you see the load of each user you add them and you see the load that the more accessories you insert more generator tries to supply current but automatically the voltage will drop. the battery cannot withstand a higher load because its capacity accumulating current is only 8 amps.
Title: Re: Flat battery. Alternator, rectifier or battery?!!
Post by: BigGinger on 16 October, 2020, 02:16:09 PM
Iím an entire volt down, 13.2, which Iím only really getting at 4-5000 revs. Iíll be testing things tomorrow and Sunday, Iíll report back with those findings once Iíve followed your instructions. Thanks guys