CBF1000

CBF1000 => Suspension, Forks, Steering, and Chassis Set-up => Topic started by: marky99925 on 10 May, 2020, 08:13:24 PM

Title: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: marky99925 on 10 May, 2020, 08:13:24 PM
Hi All
Just had new chain and sprockets fitted by honda dealer and noticed there is a gap between the back of the chain adjuster block and the rear of the slot in the swingarm, see link: https://ibb.co/k8H1c43.
Does this look properly reassembled? ive assumed the gap is because the wheel is now further forward due to the new chain but it looks wrong, also won't the swingarm fill up with water etc in the gap? typical that now ive noticed, the dealer is closed due to the virus. None of the pics i could find online show a gap but maybe they have older chains and the wheel is further back. Is there only one way the chain adjusters fit?
The wheel alignment is fine and so is the chain tension and no problems with the ride.
Wanted to run it by you guys before i rehearse my shouting the odds speech for when they reopen.
Never had a problem with the dealer in 5 years.

Thanks
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: FLIZ on 10 May, 2020, 09:02:08 PM
The spindle, chain adjuster do look as though they are further forward than maybe they should be.
Is it the chain is shorter than standard? Different size sprockets fitted?

Check number of links in chain, and number of teeth on sprockets and compare to standard.

The spindle on my bike is in the centre of the slot in the swing arm, standard oem chain and sprockets that have not been changed from new.
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: marky99925 on 10 May, 2020, 09:41:41 PM
thanks Fliz will do, there's no difference in acceleration etc but i guess there wouldnt be unless the gearing was changed via different sprocket ratios, will count the links
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: WileyCoyote on 11 May, 2020, 01:21:58 PM
Hi Marky,
Had exact same problem with a Honda dealer a few years ago and was assured by a self proclaimed Honda "Master Technician" that it was perfectly fine !
I counted the links and there were only 118 instead of the specified 120.  On pointing this out he informed me that the mechanic who carried out the work was doing me a favour by shortening the chain because it would now last longer as it had more room to stretch further before it reached the "replace" indicator mark.  :005: :192:
Anyway, I demanded a second opinion or I would send a picture to Honda Central for their advice.  They suggested I should let them do that and they would get back to me as soon as, etc, etc.  May take some time of course. So he took a picture and I rode home, about twenty minutes away, still somewhat p#ss$d off.
Just about had time take my crash hat off and put the kettle on back home when the phone rang (guess who) and was politely requested to return the bike for immediate remedy ! ! !
Got it sorted next day but lost what little trust I had in them so never returned.
At the very least they owe you for two missing links.
Hammer the incompetent morons.
Good luck an best regards,
Paul.
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: marky99925 on 11 May, 2020, 05:45:43 PM
thanks wiley, amazing that someone had the same problem, it's the perfect response, ive counted the links about 6 times today and guess what..118
 so did you ever find out if they took the missing link out? or was it just a shorter chain fitted that was meant for another model?
i feel a 'frank exchange of views' coming on when they reopen

Thanks again
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: WileyCoyote on 11 May, 2020, 06:55:16 PM
Never did get a proper explanation.  Another mechanic assured me afterwards that they had fitted a completely new chain and not merely added two more links.

Only idea I had was that as a Honda Main Dealer fitting (Hopefully) genuine Honda parts that maybe they bought Honda chain in bulk, by the Lin. metre as it were, and measured it out as they saw fit.  Obviously they were too "experienced" to have to consult workshop manuals, etc. and just pulled the minimum amount off the roll as required. ?  Or, they used a chain packaged for another model that was too long (bigger sprockets, longer swing arm ?) and shortened it accordingly.

Anyway,  it performed OK and lasted as long as I expected it too.  I replaced it with D.I.D. chain and sprocket set when the time came which was cheaper than genuine Honda stuff and looks as though it will last longer !

Good luck with it all, I'm sure with a little polite "assertiveness" they will see the error of their ways and you'll be back in action.

Once we're released from house arrest hope to get over to the Republic again soon.  Have been down the West coast a few times but never made the Limerick area so may give you shout for advice.

Stay safe, best regards,

Paul.
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: marky99925 on 11 May, 2020, 07:15:32 PM
cheers again Paul
Just emailed the sods as the website says they are open for 'emergency repairs and parts pickup, they better be !
Over 5 years ive probably spent 2 grand on servicing and gear, bloody hell it mounts up ! I keep every receipt for years, totally OCD but came in handy this time !

I spent the weekend racking my brains trying work out what i had cocked up with the adjusters but counting the links made the penny drop and your experience proved it.
What really hurts is they have had the bike in a few times since they changed the c & s, for tyres etc and never said a word.
Will let you know.
If you can get down to the ring of Kerry and west cork it's pretty magnificent, let me know, if you get stuck we'll clear my old fairing panels out of the spare room and you can break up the journey, email is rowlandsmark5@gmail.com.
Just when you thought you had seen it all........

Cheers

Mark
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: WileyCoyote on 11 May, 2020, 07:42:58 PM
Sounds like you have Honda Dealer induced O.C.D. as well, thought it may just be me but they do know how to charge so you have to keep an eye on them.

Love the Ring of Kerry especially the bit on the end, the Skelligs, where the coaches and motor homes aren't allowed and the Beara of course, happy days.

Good luck again, nighty night.

Cheers,
Paul
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: Ianrobbo1 on 11 May, 2020, 09:43:01 PM
My experience of most Honda dealers has led myself and most of the people I know to service our bikes ourselves, this tale and many others like it, set us on the self-service route, I like many others discovered that the name Honda nowadays doesn't mean good or trustworthy work is guaranteed, I know not every dealer is the same, but we have little trust in most dealers and the good ones are definitely in the minority.
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: jm2 on 11 May, 2020, 11:31:18 PM
True words of wisdom.

Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: marky99925 on 12 May, 2020, 02:58:10 PM
Thanks guys
I've had very few problems over 5 years other than a few minor niggles, but then  i am an awkward pedantic ba****d when it comes to my bike.
They have just replied as follows (it's lee honda in Cork:)

Hi Mark,
There must be enough freeplay on the chain as the workshop would of pointed out
if the chain was lacking feeeplay. There is a possibility that the sprocket combination
may of been changed slightly when the distributor supplied them hence the slight difference in the chain.
I can't check the sprocket combination at this stage as they are supplied as a kit but if the
workshop thought there was any problem they would point that out at fitment time.
Check the freeplay in the chain to ensure that there is the required amount.
Regards

really? check the freeplay? bloody hell, after 40 years on bikes i never thought to do that..what the hell do they take me for?
The sprocket story is cobblers, the rear sprocket is 43 teeth as standard.
I've told them im off to honda customer services for their opinion, and, having been a debt collector for 30 years i'll see them in the smal claims court if it comes to it, all  because of
one chain link, on their own heads be it. They might yet settle it once they realise i'm not going away.
Thanks to all
Marky
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: WileyCoyote on 12 May, 2020, 05:16:13 PM
Hi Mark,
More standard dealer speak per their customer services training dep't which works on the premise that the customer always  knows less than themselves.
Maybe if they sent him just up the road to kiss that famous stone he might be more convincing...?

Still comes back to the Honda "Bible" (workshop manual) which specifies 120 links not 118 which . in theory, is what we pay for and therefore have a right to expect.  Perhaps they don't want to be Honda dealers anymore... !

Go get 'em,  Honda Central don't like to be contradicted.

Best regards,

Paul
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: Art on 13 May, 2020, 07:35:44 AM
For my two three penneth

1) I think it is reasonable to expect a Honda dealership, or any other professional workshop, to fit parts such as drive chain and sprockets as per the manufacturers specification - 16 tooth front sprocket, 43 tooth rear sprocket and a 120 link chain. Anything outside of that specification is unacceptable.

2) Do you have a rear hugger fitted? Reducing the chain length by two links means that the rear wheel is repositioned 5/8" (16 mm) into the swingarm, on my bike that would cause the tyre to come in contact with the hugger.

3) Question (beyond my pay grade) what effect does reducing the wheelbase by 5/8" (16mm) have on solo, two up and two up plus luggage riding?
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: davidjg on 14 May, 2020, 11:35:18 AM
Hi. Please complain to Honda. I had to complain about a Honda dealer service 3 years ago ( with photos of what they had screwed up) and albeit the dealer rectified their mis-service I got 50 compensation back from Honda pretty quickly and a promise they would investigate the dealer - but  did not receive the result of any investigation they made, Cannot find the email of whom in Honda I sent the complaint to, or their reply, but I remember having to look it up on their website. The defects with my service were not as safety related as yours, and if I were you I would tell Honda  that as their dealer has not carried out the chain replacement to specified Honda standards that your safety in using the bike is highly debateable and if any accident etc is caused by the incorrect chain, you and any other parties would have cause to pursue legal action against them and their dealer.
You have been through enough hassle with your dealer, one simple email and you may get the work remedied + compensation.
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: Art on 15 May, 2020, 06:15:45 AM
Thinking back to my days in a Honda dealership workshop all replacement parts would be checked, checked and checked again. The service department and/or the parts department would check the part numbers match the model specification and raise a job card, the fitter would check the issued parts match the part numbers on the job card. After disassembly and before fitting the new parts the fitter would physically check the new parts against the old parts. In the case of a drive chain and sprocket kit this would involve laying the new sprockets against the old sprockets and physically checking size, bore etc. Same check with the chains which would be laid out side by side to physically check size, length etc. Any discrepancy being brought to the attention of the workshop foreman/managers attention to resolve. It should be impossible for an incorrect part to be fitted, so how does a 118 link chain get fitted in place of a 120 link chain?

If I was a gambling man I'd wager the job and a 120 link chain was given to an apprentice, improver or a mechanic in a rush who over flared the rivet creating a seized link, rather than bring his school boy error to the attention of the workshop foreman/manager he covers it up by removing the two now seized links and fits the now 118 link chain. This happens and it happens more often than you'd think.

Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: Shed on 15 May, 2020, 07:07:29 PM
*Originally Posted by Art [+]
what effect does reducing the wheelbase by 5/8" (16mm) have on solo, two up and two up plus luggage riding?

I suspect nowt that us mere mortal riders would notice.  :084:

If you consider a chain 'adjusted' either too tight, or too slack from the correct spec, (the Biffer adjustment giving you a scope of approx up to 1 inch range on the adjusters being between too tight & too slack), this would correspondingly give you a wheelbase which, again, is either too long, or too short from the correct spec. Of course generally a shorter wheelbase would give you more lively responsive handling particularly when cornering, with, conversely, poorer handling at speed. But, would you really notice any difference with such a small change in the wheelbase range? I highly doubt it.  :110:

Additionally, if you're loaded up with a pillion, luggage, and the obligatory sandwiches and pies in the top box, this extra weight will easily offset any handling gains you may have (conceptually) had from the minutiae of the shorter wheelbase change.
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: marky99925 on 17 May, 2020, 07:09:29 PM
Hi all
To close this off, after initial reluctance, they have now booked me in to change the chain FOC a week on Tuesday, 26th May, i think maybe copying them in on an email to Honda Ireland may have had some effect...

Can't wait to see if they get it right this time......
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: FLIZ on 17 May, 2020, 07:39:29 PM
 :028: Well done, fingers crossed they get it right this time.
 Let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: WileyCoyote on 19 May, 2020, 12:40:05 PM
Good one Mark,
Perseverance pays off again.    :062:
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: marky99925 on 19 May, 2020, 04:56:04 PM
Thanks guys
Unfortunately the moral here is: trust nothing, check everything before you ride away if possible. i know i will be now.
I've spent the lockdown learning to do more and more myself and not be lazy, very rewarding, cheap, and, above all you know it's right!
Most regular jobs are not Ph D level, take your time and give it a go.

Cheers

Marky
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: Ianrobbo1 on 19 May, 2020, 08:42:45 PM
Well said Marky, :028: I know it's the easy way out to just trust a dealer but knowing what is right and wrong will eventually see us all benefit in the long run.
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: Art on 20 May, 2020, 08:24:03 AM
Having worked in the trade and in several main dealerships I wouldn't trust a dealership workshop with anything. I have a local independent workshop I use for MOT's, tyre fitting and any work on the cars requiring a lift that's as far as it goes. I've had brand new cars and motorcycles straight from the showroom and they never go back not even for that first 600 mile service. I do it all myself and if you can you should too although its probably not for everyone, as I've said before some folk, including some dealership spanner monkeys, should not be allowed spanners. Warranty, I'm not interested because its not worth the paper its written on.

A little OCD I here you thinking but these workshops, especially the dealerships, all work to time constraints and if corners can be cut they will be cut and that is not how I want my vehicles maintained.
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: marky99925 on 20 May, 2020, 10:02:06 AM
Thanks Art, that's very telling coming from the horses mouth, been there and done it etc. Most of us havent, if we all wise up we could all end up with better maintained bikes, better skills, smug satisfaction and a few more quid in our pockets...
And we dispel the 'infallible dealer' image they try to project !

They'll hate us but it's their own fault......
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: Art on 20 May, 2020, 11:12:08 AM
It may be that I'm being too harsh and no doubt from time to time the dealerships will do a decent professional job and I accept it's only human nature to complain more often than praise but I've seen some really shocking stuff and too much of it.
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: Shed on 20 May, 2020, 09:47:20 PM
Not harsh at all, the same horror stories regarding stealerships have been around for ever. Not a lot has changed has it?  :157:

Of many examples, one favourite sticks in mind where the daughter of my work colleague had been billed for service work on her car including spark plug change.

Her dad rang up and challenged this so-called 'work'. He called the garage and spoke to a smarmy arrogant git at the other end to hear the words "I can assure you Sir, this work has been carried out".

To which he replied, "Look son, it's a f'king diesel".  :008:
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: Art on 20 May, 2020, 10:41:06 PM
Yes, I've had that billed for spark plugs and then some with a works diesel escort van on checking the part numbers, I was working for a Ford main dealership at the time, the engine oil, oil filter and air filter were all for the petrol variant too. Service manager swore it was all correct turned out to be a clerical error because the vehicle had been entered manually from drop down lists. I could let that go but not the leaf springs they billed us for and never fitted, inspected the van in our own workshop and the leaf springs had not been replaced and were fine. Then there was an independent garage that fitted a Transit fuel pump that failed inside 2 weeks, when it got to our workshops it turned out that the 900 fuel pump was a knackered unit from the breakers!

Ripping folk off is one thing plain dangerous is something else. I was out with a lad who'd just picked up his shiny brand new Street Triple after 50 miles he heard a metallic grating from the front brake and the wheel seized. There was one bolt missing from the caliper and it had rotated around and jambed between the disc and front fork and that was straight out of the workshops after its PDI!!
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: marky99925 on 21 May, 2020, 01:54:02 PM
Bloody hell lads, looks like i got off lightly !

I've royally cocked up a few jobs myself like i guess most of us have, but at least i learned something, and it cost me nothing and i only had myself to blame if i killed myself.

What is really galling is the money i've put their way over 5 years, not just for mechanical stuff but also boots, gloves etc. My lovely partner (who lets me keep the biffer in the lounge), spent over 700 in one visit alone on her gear.

Anyway, they've had their chance.

As per previous posts, to be fair the good ones must be out there, (mustn't they?) Problem is there's bugger all choice in Ireland.

on balance i agree with previous posts, i'm just going to do it all myself unless absolutely impossible.

Thanks to all


Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: marky99925 on 26 May, 2020, 03:44:24 PM
chain fitted today, no problem, all's well that ends well etc.

Still shouldnt have happened
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: WileyCoyote on 26 May, 2020, 05:11:13 PM
 :028:   :031:
Title: Re: chain adjuster positioning
Post by: Art on 26 May, 2020, 07:23:06 PM
Happy Days

I wonder if they'll try it on and fit that to another mo'cycle?