CBF1000 => General Maintenance, Servicing, and Mechanical => Topic started by: motorhead13 on 23 April, 2020, 04:50:30 PM

Title: Performance Problem
Post by: motorhead13 on 23 April, 2020, 04:50:30 PM
I recently got my 06 CBF with 21600 miles. I've had and got a few bikes but my first Honda.

On the 2nd ride it seemed to be misfiring as had no power and idled lower than it should, I had to slip the clutch to get going and felt a vibration between my feet. I changed a plug and it semed normal but since then on occasion the FI light stays flashing  and I still don't think its running right.

I start it and the FI light stays flashing, so turn it off and on again and it doesn't come on. Its done this a couple times. Then when riding, around 3-4k it seems to hesitate and stutter as in it accelerates then holts and tries again like something's holding it back slightly like not enough fuel & air getting through. Once a bit higher in the revs its better but seems like its only running at about 80-90%.

Whether this matters, its got Scott oiler. I only mention that as I found an old post on here where they had a performance issue where the problem was a split in the vacum hose in the set up of the oiler, but there problem seemed worse than mine.

Any advice is much appreciated as its a new bike to me. I take it this isn't just a character of the bike?

Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: Art on 23 April, 2020, 05:57:48 PM
Did you get it from a dealer or private? If a dealer get them to sort it, if private check what PGM-FI fault code is flashing.

When the PGM-FI engine check lamp is on with the engine idling engage neutral gear and put the side stand down. The PGM-FI lamp will start flashing the active codes. The lamp has two types of flash, a long 1.3 second flash and short half second flash. One long flash equals ten short flashes. For example, when two long flashes are followed by three short flashes, the fault code is 23 (two long flashes equals 20 plus the three short flashes equals 23). If there is more than one fault code the lamp will flash the lowest code first.

The fault codes are

1.    Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor or its circuit malfunction
2.    MAP sensor hose disconnection or poor connection
7.    Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor or its circuit malfunction.
8.    Throttle Position (TP) sensor or its circuit malfunction
9.    Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor or its circuit malfunction
11.    Vehicle Speed (VS) sensor or its circuit malfunction
12.    No. 1 Injector or its circuit malfunction
13.    No. 2 Injector or its circuit malfunction
14.    No. 3 Injector or its circuit malfunction
15.    No. 4 Injector or its circuit malfunction
21.    O2 sensor or its circuit malfunction
23.    O2 sensor heater or its circuit malfunction
29.    Idle Air Control Valve (IACV) or its circuit malfunction

Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: motorhead13 on 27 April, 2020, 10:45:45 AM
Thanks for that Art, I'll check as soon as I can.

It was from a dealer but I'm in Cardiff and they're in Nottingham and obviously things aren't ideal at the moment and they're not open. I'll try and find out the code and go from there.

Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: Art on 27 April, 2020, 11:34:09 AM
Even if the dealer is shut contact them in triplicate (telephone answer machine, email and letter) detailing the date and mileage the problem occurred. Write them a story, chapter and verse to be perfectly clear the fault occurred and was reported inside any warranty or guarantee period.
Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: Scott_rider on 27 April, 2020, 11:54:19 AM
I don't know if this will help but there are a couple of things I would check as the standard bike should pull like a train at those revs and without any hesitation whatsoever...

1). Check the airbox isn't blocked with something like a cloth...that sounds bonkers but it has happened before when a bike's been cleaned. There are 3 screws to take off the airbox cover so it's a really quick job to check.

2). Is the Lambda sensor properly connected to the underside of the exhaust box, just before that connects into the silencers? If it's not then that can confuse the fuel system.

3). Disconnect the battery for a good 10 minutes then reconnect it and start the bike but don't rev the engine, then let it get up to temperature and switch it off at the kill switch, then turn the ignition key off. This should do a basic reset of the ECU.

As I say, these may not help and they are very, very basic checks but it's worth checking them for 15 minutes, imho  :018:

Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: Art on 27 April, 2020, 01:16:35 PM
Probably useful stuff there Scott_rider but since the engine check lamp is on I think its best we start there and see where the current Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC's) lead us. I'm unclear what the re-set procedure you describe does. There is a procedure described in the Honda workshop manual to clear the Engine Control Module (ECM) of any stored DTC's although we don't want to do that just yet as we need to read them first! Whether the workshop manual procedure is a complete factory re-set or whether it just clears the stored DTC's I'm not sure, I would have thought since the procedure clears one part of stored memory it would clear all stored memory back to a factory re-set, but as I said I'm not sure. Anyway...

The workshop manual procedure to clear the ECM of any stored DTC's is

I did a couple of dedicated posts on reading and clearing fault codes earlier the links are

How to read Diagnostic Trouble Codes (https://www.cbf1000.com/index.php/topic,22756.0.html)

How to read ABS Problem Codes (https://www.cbf1000.com/index.php/topic,22757.0.htm)

Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: Scott_rider on 27 April, 2020, 02:05:09 PM
Yes, I agree that there is no point in clearing the codes until they've been read...I didn't think of that  :012:.

Re-setting the ECU the way I described it just clears it's values, so to speak, and then it starts to operate from a zero point of view rather than starting with old values that it's learnt from the engine over a period of time. Not sure if it's worth doing but I've always done it on my bikes when I've had the odd fault or warning light that won't go away. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: motorhead13 on 10 May, 2020, 02:20:53 PM
Thanks for the replies and sorry for the late response.

Just got the code and it flashed 8 times the same length so looks like throttle position sensor.
Anyone had any experience with that? I'd guess that means it won't fuel the engine or respond to the throttle action properly?
Do you think it would be a simple or costly fix?
Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: Art on 10 May, 2020, 04:30:45 PM
There are mixed reviews on replacing the TP sensor might be worth cleaning it but note and photograph its position before disassembling so it can be reassembled exactly as was. No new part available from Honda because it is a factory set up with the balancing of the throttle bodies. Search previous posts there has been much written.

One post I read that may be worth a read is here  skip to post 48 onward and follow the other links  (https://www.cbf1000.com/index.php/topic,19729.40.html)

Remember this is the internet and there could well be wheat and chaff in there amongst the red herrings.
Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: jm2 on 11 May, 2020, 11:22:38 PM
TPS fault on a dealer bike.  Take it back!  It is all do-able but let them in the first instance.

Name the dealer - if on Triumph road they have other branches and a Head Office in the NE you could deal with.
Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: motorhead13 on 20 May, 2020, 11:50:22 AM
The bike is under warranty but that runs out soon. I contacted the dealer about this and they said I they can look at it or I can get it done near me and they charge the warranty, the problem is that the place I go near me is still shut.

So I'm going to contact the dealer and see what they say about doing it though they may be reluctant and they are so far away (and possibly still closed), and also do I want to send it back to a place that probably sold me a bike with a fault??

I've read the previous posts about this (thanks for the links) and it seems replacements can be a bit hit and miss. Do you think it would be better trying to get a used original part or a new one? ALso does it need setting up or adjusting in anyway? I've seen in posts I need one with a position pointing to 10 o'clock though can look at mine before buying anything. I still need to have a look at mine, it also said in previous posts about a method of checking the voltage on the TPS, which seems worth doing on mine before I look at a replacement?
Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: jm2 on 21 May, 2020, 12:12:40 AM
I'd refer to reply #9.

If it is the TPS it can be costly and hard to source the original part and take some setting up.  You shouldn't have the hassle.  Name the dealer.  Even a puka one (or was it?) fitted by a dealer took a return attempt.

Once you're on your own, there are sources out there but your bike will be off the road for a bit.

Testing hasn't, in the past, seemed to so useful (unless totally knackered).  The best diagnosis I read on here was the fact one was full of water when opened up.
Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: motorhead13 on 22 May, 2020, 10:51:17 AM
What is required for setting up a replacement?
Its not a case of finding either a used or new one and fitting it in the same postion as the old one then?
Also is it likely that it can be sorted by a garage or a new one set up by them?
When I fitted a newer engine in my 06 ZX6 I had to get the throttle adjusted electronically in some way (not balanced) which I think was something along the lines of the TPS which a garage did quite easily.

I'm going to contact the dealer and ask them to do it, my only concern would be that would they actually sort it or just do it so the FI light doesn't show and then the warranty runs out. Chance I'd have to take as otherwise its down to me to sort anyway.
Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: Art on 22 May, 2020, 12:29:43 PM
It's still in warranty take it back and let the dealer sort it out because, going by details posted in previous TP sensor threads, it can be a right pain. They can't make the PGM-FI light go out without fixing the fault. When the Ignition is turned on the PGM-FI light comes on, it then does one of two things it goes out indicating there are no current fault codes or, it flashes indicating there is a current fault code. The number and type of flashes indicate what the fault code is, as you identified earlier.

Once the dealer has fixed the fault ask them what exactly they did to fix it. You can then check for yourself that when the ignition is turned on the PGM-FI light comes on, goes off and stays off when the engine is fired up and running. This indicates the ECM has not detected any current fault codes and the status of the FI system is normal and as it should be. You could also check to make sure the dealer cleared the ECM of the stored fault code too. If they didn't bring that to the attention of the dealer by asking the question "why are there XYZ fault codes stored in the ECU memory"?

Note stored fault codes do not necessarily indicate there is a fault they just indicate there was a fault, useful for diagnosing intermittent FI system faults.
Title: Re: Performance Problem
Post by: jm2 on 22 May, 2020, 12:36:45 PM
Bugger - written reply less useful (newer post).