CBF1000

CBF1000 => Tyres and Wheels => Topic started by: Crispy on 19 July, 2019, 01:43:32 PM

Title: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Crispy on 19 July, 2019, 01:43:32 PM
I’ve recently replaced the rear wheel bearings on my CBF1000A. During removal of the wheel bearings it was possible to move the inner spacer to one side to knock out a bearing. This is how the Haynes manual explained how to do it.

On refitting, Haynes says fit the right side bearing first, which stops when it hits the shoulder of the hub. Then insert the spacer and fit the left side bearing which again stops when it makes contact with the shouldered hub.

Now the spacer doesn’t have nearly the same amount of play as the one I pulled out. But it’s perfectly aligned with the inner race of the bearings, which it’s supposed to do to keep them from falling inwards under pressure of the axle.

Does anyone know if this will be okay? Why would there be a shouldered hub to stop the bearing from going any further down and is perfectly aligned with the spacer? Why would there be play in the spacer on the last set of bearings and now there is very little? Surely the spacer cannot rattle around as it wouldn’t do its job of supporting the inner race of the bearing?

Thanks



Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: raYzerman on 29 July, 2019, 03:05:03 AM
The spacer, once the axle is torqued up should have no clearance... the spacer is there to prevent the bearings from being pulled in.  I suspect one of your old bearings was not fully seated?  But sometimes all it takes is a couple of thou clearance to make you think it's "loose".
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Art on 29 July, 2019, 01:33:00 PM
It could be the bearings are not or were not fully seated or the bearing spacer tube is worn. Did you inspect the bearing spacer tube for wear or damage before installation? The workshop manuals don't mention this. Its possible for worn bearings to mushroom the end of the bearing spacer tube causing it to become shorter or out of square at the end and reduced in length.



 
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Crispy on 29 July, 2019, 03:26:04 PM
Thanks for the reply chaps.

There’s a guy on YouTube called Del Boy’s Garage, and in his video about wheel bearings he says you should leave a slight gap between the spacer and the bearing, but his bike was a Triumph (Tiger I think).

I did check the spacer carefully and there was no disfiguration. It fits perfectly in the space between the bearings but doesn’t have the same amount of play as when I removed it.

Possibly the previous bearings wasn’t seated properly, and could have led to the play in the wheel leading me to change the bearings. The wheel turns smoothly so it should be okay.

Many thanks
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Art on 29 July, 2019, 05:08:43 PM
Correctly fitted there should be just sufficient movement in the bearing clearance tube for the axel to be be fitted, a little grease helps hold it in place until the axel is in. Once the rear wheel nut has been torqued to 70 lb ft the bearings will then be fully seated.

Be careful what you watch on YouTube, you can find good, bad, ugly and avoid at all costs on there. Del Boys Garage is right up there with the best of them. He takes a bit of stick from time to time but generally that's because he's showing you how to do a given job without the resources of a fully kitted out dealership workshop and a £100 tool which of course the home mechanic wouldn't have access to.

Sounds as if the jobs a good'un, well done.
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Crispy on 29 July, 2019, 11:05:58 PM
Thanks for that Art, it’s reassuring to know. I suppose the correct torque on the axle nut wouldn’t crush the spacer regardless of how much space there is between it and the bearings. So long, as you say, one can get the axle through the hub.

Del Boy is great, but I always carefully read through the manual first. He provides some great tips and its great to be able to see the job done on video. Top bloke!

The front wheel bearings were much more difficult to extract than the rear. I had to buy a butane blow torch and heat the hub to get them out, making sure I didn’t heat the wheel up too much as the alloy wheel has a low melting point. I can use the spare butane to make Crème brûlée now.

Cheers
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Shed on 30 July, 2019, 10:50:22 PM
I'll have to disagree with both of you guys reckoning Delboy is 'great' & 'the best'. This guy is a clown, and a dangerous one at that. The list of stupidity in evidence from this bus-driver-come-self-appointed-motorcycle 'guru' is shocking. There are indeed, some good tips to be seen, but beware what you believe. This bloke often talks the talk about stuff he clearly has no idea about. At times he talks utter garbage. Ill-informed guesswork a lot of the time, and he has been called out & proven wrong many times, but he doesn't like it. Evidently removes negative comments from his channel and bans people who don't agree with him, or criticise. Only those with less knowledge would believe what he says, but those with more knowledge are staggered at the ineptness and foolishness of this bodger.

To mention but a few things (and there are many to pick from), heating bolts up and dropping them in oil, drilling, grinding, all with no safety glasses on. Clamping a running angle grinder in a bench vice. Slapping copper slip all over brake pads as if you were "buttering a biscuit". Home made silencer - using loft insulation.
Drilled a hole which was too small in a piece of metal: use the next size up drill bit to enlarge the hole? No. Put the work-piece in a vice, and then stick a hardened steel rats tail file in a power drill chuck and use it to ream out the undersized holes. Penetrating eye injury anyone? And he does this while only inches away there is a band lanisher!
All the gear, and clearly no idea.

Apparently he has sold his soul now too, as he gets freebies sent in to plug on his channel, he'll plug any old crap while saying it's the best thing since sliced bread. Check out the piston push back 'tool' (which barely works and splays apart in operation), that he diligently plugs for yet another corporate kickback. What an embarrassment.
I could make a better one out of wet cardboard.

Check out his corporate shill visit to Sealey Tools, where, at one point, they mention adjustable spanners. "Oh, that must be an imperial adjustment spanner". What?! Embarrassing. Can't wait til he visits the left-handed light bulb factory.
 
Evans' Waterless Coolant anybody? Oh dear. How much did he get for spouting out that claptrap? Cringeworthy.

Wait til you see the idiot holding (or should that be wobbling?) a press drill vice while 'countersinking' on a press drill. Jesus Christ on a bike! Absolutely clueless. This cretin is a danger to himself and anyone daft enough to take note of his so-called 'expertise'. The list goes on. And on. And on.

Get yourself on youtube and check out The Workshop, with Matt, who has been calling out 'Delbollix' for quite a while. Quite entertaining and absolutely revealing exactly how little the bus driver actually 'knows'. Delbollix even had the police sent up to Matt for 'harassment', and whined to youtube trying to get The Workshop channel shut down.

Delboys ego is way, way, way, beyond his actual skill level. What a bodging clown this bloke is, but at least you'll get some belly laughs from his videos. He says he's helping "to teach the younger ones these skills", problem is, he hasn't even learnt these skills yet himself.
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Art on 01 August, 2019, 09:02:37 AM
You'll be telling us Penny Pitstop isn't hot next.

Some fair points. I've not seen too much of what you mention as I don't watch so much of what he produces. I did see him butter up that disc pad with copper slip though, not one of his better moments. My putting Delboy's Garage up there with the best was in the context of what you get on YouTube. If you're going to watch a YouTube video then Delboys Garage is a good, clear representation of the job in hand by someone who, as well as being an ex-bus driver, is also qualified and has proven himself working in the practice of what he preaches.

I've worked in and around enough workshops that I probably just dismiss without too much thought anything I see where I think I wouldn't do it like that or that's not quite right. With the amount of videos he's produced and the very nature of YouTube there will be wheat and chaff. From what I've seen, and that's not so much, following Del Boys servicing videos should result in a better job by doing it yourself than booking the work in with a garage where, due to time constraints, more short cuts get taken than you could shake a stick at.


Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Shed on 01 August, 2019, 12:20:18 PM
Penny pitstop? Yeah, as hot as they come!

I've seen about a dozen of Delboy's videos, first introduced to him by way of a mate sending a link saying how dangerous the bloke is. Sometimes so bad, you could genuinely think you're watching a parody.

A little knowledge can be very dangerous, and you'll see this in the videos. Many a time you can see he has no real understanding of what he is doing, or why. Looks more like a few sentences were read on wikipedia, and he's simply invented the rest to save time reading.

Let''s face it, we've all cut corners at some point to get the job done. There is definitely some good stuff to be seen, and those who like to have a go may well do so after watching. But, the issue with Del is he's putting his vids up saying he's 'teaching' those who are less aware. That's fine, but don't teach utter crass stupidity when using the tools. An apprentice in his first month would be out on his arse if they showed such disregard and continued in such a reckless manner.

Anyone not particularly savvy could follow Del's lead using the tools based on what they've seen, and end up with a serious injury. Anyone who claims to 'teach' while risking someone elses safety by using those very same 'teaching' methods is simply a deluded idiot and charlatan.


Check out some of the stuff mentioned above, (and there is more than that out there), some of his 'methods' are appalling, and simply brainless.

He's obviously took on board some criticism though, as he's now to be seen wearing gloves & glasses almost all the time, or in his editing he makes sure this is shown. Earlier vids show that wasn't the case, and some earlier vids have vanished altogether.

He postulates he's been doing it for 'over 30 years', however, some of the evidence would suggest more like a years experience - repeated for 30 years.

He's sold out for cash now, and duly deserves to be scrutinized & criticized. Particularly when he's plugging utter crap. But more so when 'teaching' how to, allegedly, use the tools.

He's lost self respect selling out plugging any old cac though. You won't see a vid now without a product placement within it, or he's positioned himself in front of some company logo while chatting away. Or, he'll open a draw for a tool and there's a company logo blatently positioned for a lingering shot!
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Crispy on 03 August, 2019, 07:58:49 AM
 :431:

.... but in my first few years as a newbie I’ve nearly been ripped-off by motorcycle mechanics to the tune of well over a grand.

Perhaps people do work on their machine because they no longer trust motorcycle garages.

I myself have done my own research and found that the ‘problems’ found with my bike by a motorcycle mechanic are either non existent or can be easily rectified.

I suppose Del makes his videos assuming that those who watch them and consider  doing their own work on their bikes are at least confident, have a degree of common sense, and have a manual for their bike. What other sort of people would watch Del’s videos.

Anyway Shed, what’s your expert opinion on the rear wheel bearing spacer? Del and Haynes say there should be a gap?

Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: raYzerman on 03 August, 2019, 02:54:24 PM
LOL, there's another guy whose videos I can't watch on another forum, thinks he's a mechanic but he's not, mostly just trying to draw attention to himself.  So much misinformation is spread by these types and I think it dangerous that the novices adopt some of this crap as gospel.  If you grew up wrenching stuff that's one thing, but if you're just learning, best stick to the proper service manuals, and if not clear, then ask away right here.
As for your spacer issue, I cannot see in the Haynes or Factory manual where it says leave a space.  In fact the opposite, when installing the bearing on one side, seat it, insert distance spacer and install the other bearing against it.  Makes perfect sense to me.  The entire sandwich (once the axle is installed and torqued up) will have zero gaps between any of the "distance collar", bearings, spacers and swingarm, and the bearings will (should) be fully seated where they belong.
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Art on 03 August, 2019, 04:19:08 PM
The Honda manual makes no mention of any gap between the spacer and the bearings because the recommended procedures to remove and install the rear wheel bearings are carried out using specialist Honda workshop tools that do not require drifting the bearings from the opposite side of the hub, therefore any gap is of no consequence to the procedure.

The Haynes manual doesn't mention any gap either but the bearing must be a loose enough fit for it to be possible to 'move the spacer to one side' as per the instruction at 20.14 and the illustration which depicts a diagram of the spacer at sufficient an angle to the bearings so as to completely expose the bearings inner race. Haynes instruction at 20.14 also goes on to mention an alternative procedure using an internal expanding puller (this is the type of tool Honda use) if you can't get sufficient purchase. If you can't get sufficient purchase on the inner race it can only be because their is insufficient gap between the spacer and the bearings. This comes about when the rear wheel axel nut is torqued up to 70 lb ft.

The old bearings probably allowed the spacer more movement because they were worn and drying out of grease. The newly fitted bearings shouldn't have a gap, the way I'd describe it is 'fully seated loose fit'. To be sure if you remove the wheel I'm confident you'll find that having torqued the axel nut to 70 lb ft there is no gap.
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Shed on 03 August, 2019, 08:02:12 PM
*Originally Posted by Crispy [+]
:431:

.... but in my first few years as a newbie I’ve nearly been ripped-off by motorcycle mechanics to the tune of well over a grand. Perhaps people do work on their machine because they no longer trust motorcycle garages.

No need to be sorry Crispy, fully understandable to be a bit wary.
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Shed on 03 August, 2019, 08:29:03 PM
*Originally Posted by Crispy [+]
:431:

Del and Haynes say there should be a gap?

Well, Haynes manual doesn't actually say that at all. As Art & raYzerman have pointed out.

Also, if you look at the manual here, https://bob.ollis-brown.co.uk/manuals/cbf1000/2006-2008-CBF1000-A-15%20REAR%20WHEEL-SUSPENSION.pdf page 15-10, it clearly states the bearings on both sides are to be "fully seated" to the collar.

This means touching the collar, but not jammed so tight you can't move the spacer (or 'distance collar' as it is also bizarrely named) :187:. As Art & raYzerman say, you need to be able to shift the spacer ever so slightly, and if you have put the bearings in fully home, when you torque up properly to the specified 98Nm, (72lb), you'll be absolutely fine. Don't fret about it.

It's great that you're prepared to have a go yourself :062:

As for "Del says...", the best advice I can give you here is: if you must watch his comedy videos, then turn the sound off, and ask on the forum. It's a mine of information frequented by seasoned spanner monkeys :oldie: who'll help you all the way. Ignore the likes of Delbollix, the real experts are on here.
:730:
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Shed on 03 August, 2019, 08:33:31 PM
*Originally Posted by raYzerman [+]
LOL, there's another guy whose videos I can't watch on another forum, thinks he's a mechanic but he's not, mostly just trying to draw attention to himself.  So much misinformation is spread by these types and I think it dangerous that the novices adopt some of this crap as gospel.  If you grew up wrenching stuff that's one thing, but if you're just learning, best stick to the proper service manuals, and if not clear, then ask away right here.

 :0461:

Too many self-appointed narcissistic 'heroes' who clearly think they are God's gift. Tossers.
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Crispy on 03 August, 2019, 08:50:50 PM
Hi raYzorman, it does look fairly obvious but there are potential problems if it’s not fitted properly. One of the skills of a good mechanic is not creating extra jobs for yourself. As Shed points out, incorrect use of tools can cause a whole new problem, a classic is rounding a bolt with rash use of your tools. I’ve done it and that little ******* ruined my weekend.

As for the spacer, the mechanic who written the manual, myself and Del were able to move the spacer slightly to expose the inner race of the bearing. A tight fit could damage the spacer (heat expansion, wear etc), which would/could lead to wear on the bearings, meaning I’d have to do the job again, with extra cost and having my bike off road. There’s also the possibility of the spacer not being correctly aligned so I can’t get the axle back through. And also how would I be able to extract the bearings if they’re a tight fit?



Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Art on 04 August, 2019, 09:55:18 AM
Have you re-fitted that rear wheel yet?
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Crispy on 04 August, 2019, 11:01:26 AM
*Originally Posted by Art [+]
Have you re-fitted that rear wheel yet?

Hi Art, yes the wheel has been refitted. I also cleaned the brake caliper whilst it was off - then greased it - silicone on rubbers and sliders, copper on pads and pin, bit of red rubber grease on the pistons.

Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Art on 04 August, 2019, 11:03:28 PM
Just get out and ride now
Title: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Spacer
Post by: Crispy on 05 August, 2019, 09:58:02 PM
I suppose the use of the word “gap” was the wrong terminology in mechanical engineering terms, but without doubt a few thou of an inch “gap” between the spacer and the bearings would indeed, to my limited knowledge of mechanical engineering, be a gap. It wouldn’t move otherwise.

Pardon my pedantry, but I love MotoGP.

Thanks for the input guys, nice to have a discussion with you.