CBF1000

CBF1000 => Lighting, Electrical, and Wiring => Topic started by: RogerG on 03 January, 2014, 12:42:31 PM

Title: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: RogerG on 03 January, 2014, 12:42:31 PM
My Girlfriend brought me a new battery for Xmas for my CBF1000.

The advert said it was compatible with my bike, but it also said ‘Replaces YTX7A-BS’ which is not the battery that the Bike uses.

I believe the Lead Acid YTX7A-BS battery is only 6amp/hours where my original was 8.6amp/hour.

When it arrived I measured across the battery terminal and got 13.2 volts which surprised me as I am used to more like 12.4v from a lead acid battery when it has been standing for a while.

I fitted it (without charging it), pressed the starter, and the Bike burst into life, and the engine span with more vigour that usual. One thing my bike has never liked is to be turned off after only a minute or two, so I did that, and no problem.

The Bikes original battery lasted two years and 13,000 miles. I replaced it is March 2012 as it started to get a bit ‘iffy’ when starting cold, and much worse when the engine was hot. The replacement then was a genuine ‘YUASA YTZ10S’ but the old problems started again recently after 21 months and 7,000 miles.

To be fair, the Bike is kept in an isolated lock-up garage, and in the Winter only used a couple of times a month, and then for only a 30-40 mile blast around, which is not a lot to recharge the battery.

I was concerned that the new Lithium Ion battery has a lower Amp/Hour rating, but after thinking about it, providing the battery can easily start the engine, and I know that the charging system covers the Bikes requirement and charges the battery at low revs, so hopefully it will not be a problem.

Prior to fitting the new Battery I took some measurements and got…

At idle with Dip beam on = 14.12v
At idle with Dip beam+Fan running = 14.12v
Raising the revs to 2,000 or more = 14.40v
Just after switching the engine off, battery equalled = 12.88v

The new battery was physically identical in size to the original, but really light in weight. It felt like someone had cut off the top of the battery, removed everything from the inside and refitted the top – it really was that light. I could easily pick it up just using my thumb and forefinger.

I used the Bike for the second time with the new battery, after it had been standing for a week – it started readily.

As I understand it, Lithium Ion batteries do not lose their charge when left unused for long periods of time, so hopefully are more suitable to my circumstances.

This particular battery was made by ‘Haijiu’ – I had never heard of them.
The packaging says…
65% lighter than lead acid
2000+ charging cycles.
It cost £75.99 + Carriage

More details at…
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110948321324?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110948321324?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648)

Only time will tell if fitting a relatively cheap Lithium Ion battery proves to be a good idea.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Westy on 03 January, 2014, 01:19:22 PM
I'll watch this thread eagerly. I also need a new battery. I keep persevering with the old one but I know it's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: richardcbf on 03 January, 2014, 01:19:40 PM
Very interesting and, as you say, time will tell.
There's a similar item, branded as 'JMT' being offered for sale, with more specifications given under 'Technical Details', here....
http://www.amazon.co.uk/MOTORCYCLE-BATTERY-707-00-36-YTX7A-FP-HJTX7A-FP-I/dp/B00CXOMRKW (http://www.amazon.co.uk/MOTORCYCLE-BATTERY-707-00-36-YTX7A-FP-HJTX7A-FP-I/dp/B00CXOMRKW)

(Last month, with my bike's 4 year old battery starting to show signs of age/under charge, as a precaution I bought a new Yuasa YTZ10S for £62 from a Honda dealer, but haven't fitted it yet.)
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: alan sh on 03 January, 2014, 03:33:19 PM
Can it be trickle charged with an optimate?
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: richardcbf on 03 January, 2014, 04:12:18 PM
*Originally Posted by alan sh [+]
Can it be trickle charged with an optimate?

Probably should not be with those that have an automatic desulfation mode, but there's now an 'Optimate' specifically for LiFePO4 batteries.
OptiMate Lithium
http://www.accumate.co.uk/optimate%20lithium.htm (http://www.accumate.co.uk/optimate%20lithium.htm)
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: RogerG on 18 January, 2014, 02:46:03 PM
Just a quick update on the Lithium battery I got for Xmas – On arrival it was fitted to my Bike without being charged. I did a quick 30 mile ride on 26/12/13, and then the bike was not used for 7 days. When used for the second time the Bike started very easily, and again that was for only a short ride, but this time my heated grips were in use.

Due to the bad weather, the bike was not used again until today, some 16 days later. I have one of the LED voltage indicators on the Bike which from memory has a Red, 2xAmber, and 3 green LEDs.

Usually when the bike has stood for 1 or 2 days, at switch on, I get the Red and either 1 or 2 Amber LED alight. Today I was surprised as at switch on, they were all alight apart from the last one – never seen that before. The bike started easily, and all LEDs then lit as usual.

One thing my bike has never liked in the 3 years and 20,000 miles I have had it, is starting with a hot engine. Starting cold is usually ok (until the time to replace the battery comes), but never hot – today at the end of my ride I switched it off, waited 5 minutes, and it re-started easily. Before the starter motor always seemed to turn the engine over more slowly when the engine is hot, but not now.

As my garage is a remote lock-up without electricity I could never trickle charge the battery when the bike was unused. Based on the short time I have had the Lithium battery it certainly seems to holds it charge extremely well.

I must admit I am surprised that such a light in weight battery can spin a 1,000cc engine so easily.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: grgeorgiev on 30 January, 2014, 09:19:32 AM
Hi All,
Did anyone else tried those Li batteries?
I need to change my battery and I'm seriously thinking to buy one of those Li batteries. What I'm not sure of after reading  the description is what is the actual battery capacity.

RogerG, is your LED indicator suitable for use with a Li battery? As far as I know there is slight difference in the voltage between Li and lead-acid batteries.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: RogerG on 31 January, 2014, 07:49:50 AM
*Originally Posted by grgeorgiev [+]
Hi All,
Did anyone else tried those Li batteries?
I need to change my battery and I'm seriously thinking to buy one of those Li batteries. What I'm not sure of after reading  the description is what is the actual battery capacity.

RogerG, is your LED indicator suitable for use with a Li battery? As far as I know there is slight difference in the voltage between Li and lead-acid batteries.

My LED indicator just gives me an idea of the batteries voltage, whatever type of battery it is.
It seems that the 'at rest', or 'not used for a good while' voltage on the Lithium battery is around 1 volt higher that I usually have.
I would have preferred a Lithium battery that was the same 'Amp/Hour' as the stock battery, but I believe the one I have is only rated at 6 A/H, but then again its cheap, but it certainly is an improvement on what I had - bottom line... only time will tell.

There is an important difference between a batteries Amp/Hour rating and its 'Cold Cranking' rating - my guess is, if the battery can spin the engine without dropping its voltage to the rest of the bike it starts easier.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: grgeorgiev on 31 January, 2014, 08:35:01 AM
Thanks RogerG.
It sounds like a good replacement. I'm. Going to go for it.
Another idea I have is to mount a smaller Li battery under the pillion seat in order to expand the battery capacity...but only if needed.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Sunset Rider on 31 January, 2014, 12:21:02 PM
Have one on my son's XV750 Cafe Racer. It stands around for months without being started and holds the charge quite well.Never had to recharge it yet. I am almost finsh restoration of a RD350LC, I will be using one for that asn well. There are extremely light, can be mounted in any position/angle and seems to hold charge quite well on machines that do not do a lot of running around.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: riles on 01 February, 2014, 10:55:54 AM
I hate to be a wet blanket but would urge a little caution.
I'd hate Honda to wriggle out of a stator replacement under warranty because you were using a non-standard battery.
If that doesn't bother you at least make sure it has a 'CE' approval if you live in Europe.
I'm positive these batteries will soon become the new standard, just not sure how soon.
Just my opinion, of course.
SR
PS Please don't use a standard charger! (See my next offering!)
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Shamone on 01 February, 2014, 10:58:35 AM
How's best to charge them? If the bikes charging circuit just gives the battery 14v to charge it wouldn't a cheapo car battery charger do the same thing?
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: johnstg2 on 01 February, 2014, 12:59:32 PM
I think the chargers to avoid are "Optimate" style ones, where they cycle through different processes such as "de-sulphation".....whatever that is? They do now make chargers (or battery tenders as they call them) specifically for Li-ion batteries so make sure you get the correct type.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Sunset Rider on 02 February, 2014, 10:47:36 AM
*Originally Posted by riles [+]
I hate to be a wet blanket but would urge a little caution.
I'd hate Honda to wriggle out of a stator replacement under warranty because you were using a non-standard battery.
If that doesn't bother you at least make sure it has a 'CE' approval if you live in Europe.
I'm positive these batteries will soon become the new standard, just not sure how soon.
Just my opinion, of course.
SR
PS Please don't use a standard charger!

No, I think you need adifferent charger.....but thankfully have not had the need for one yet. Have to agree, I think that it will be the standardsoon....but can't see manufacturers moving away from their sweethart deal with conventional battery makers any time soon....much the same arguement as putting sub standard tyres on newbikes I guess.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: riles on 02 February, 2014, 01:06:17 PM
Had another look at charging.

As Johnstg2 said already, the desulphate mode of a regular Optimate is incompatible with Li Ion batteries.
As I currently (!) understand it you can use a bog-standard battery charger IF the battery has built-in protection circuitry similar to that found in these and presumably the AntiGravity LI batteries:
http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/LithiumIonBatteryProtectionSystem.php (http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/LithiumIonBatteryProtectionSystem.php)

which basically has

    Low Voltage Protection Switch  - Automatically disconnects at 8V
    Over Voltage Protection Switch - Automatically disconnects at 15.8V
    Short Circuit Protection Switch - Automatically disconnects
    Reverse Polarity Protection Switch - Automatically disconnects
    Internal cell balancing   - Automatically balances cells  I believe that's really important
    Charge Balancing - Independant balancing for multiple batteries connected in parallel or in series.

For longest life a LI needs around 14.5v in the charge circuit, you guys would know better than me if that is what our regulator chucks out.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: RogerG on 03 February, 2014, 07:45:09 AM
If its true that Lithium Ion batteries do not lose their charge when left unused for long periods of time, there is no need for a charger.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: golfsharpy12 on 03 February, 2014, 09:25:23 AM
*Originally Posted by RogerG [+]
If its true that Lithium Ion batteries do not lose their charge when left unused for long periods of time, there is no need for a charger.

Li batteries do self-discharge - initially at a lower rate (1-2% per month) than the norm but then as the % charge lowers the discharge rate accelerates.  However also be aware that once they go below a certain level - manufacturer dependant they can have their chemical composition changed and be irreversibly damaged.  They also carry a greater fire hazard when in a semi-discharged state - though this usually requires the skin to be punctured.   I sit on an ICAO working Group that has (unfortunately) deliberated considerably on Li batteries and there are genuine hazards that most users do not appreciate.   

Rgds Steve

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?sa=X&rlz=2C1CHFX_enGB0537GB0537&espv=210&es_sm=122&biw=1920&bih=955&tbm=isch&tbnid=Y0mewoDrQCw8TM%3A&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mpoweruk.com%2Fperformance.htm&docid=wACZDcHHe0nigM&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mpoweruk.com%2Fimages%2Fdischarge-C-rate.gif&w=400&h=308&ei=WV_vUoP0HI6BhAep34D4AQ&zoom=1&ved=0CFcQhBwwAA&iact=rc&dur=3090&page=1&start=0&ndsp=33 (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?sa=X&rlz=2C1CHFX_enGB0537GB0537&espv=210&es_sm=122&biw=1920&bih=955&tbm=isch&tbnid=Y0mewoDrQCw8TM%3A&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mpoweruk.com%2Fperformance.htm&docid=wACZDcHHe0nigM&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mpoweruk.com%2Fimages%2Fdischarge-C-rate.gif&w=400&h=308&ei=WV_vUoP0HI6BhAep34D4AQ&zoom=1&ved=0CFcQhBwwAA&iact=rc&dur=3090&page=1&start=0&ndsp=33)


See below:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/lithium-ion-battery.htm (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/lithium-ion-battery.htm)

Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Rev Ken on 03 February, 2014, 09:13:11 PM
Would the battery fires on the latest passenger aircraft be LI?
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: golfsharpy12 on 03 February, 2014, 09:28:36 PM
Indeed they were (on the Boeing Dreamliner) - they are more dangerous in their discharged state.  Hopefully,  not a problem unless you have an alternator failure and crash, Hopefully an unlikely scenario, :188:








Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: johnstg2 on 04 February, 2014, 11:56:46 AM
*Originally Posted by Rev Ken [+]
Would the battery fires on the latest passenger aircraft be LI?


Read this recently....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25810331 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25810331)

Don't know if there are any implications for motorcycle batteries. What would your insurance company say if a non-standard Li-ion battery sets your bike on fire? All modifications should be declared.
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Bifferman on 04 February, 2014, 02:12:39 PM
Was it not HP and Dell who had exploding/self igniting Li batteries in their lap tops a few years ago.  I got a free replacement Li battery for my HP and no issue with old one.
 
RogerG.  AGM batteries hold their charge for a very long time, as for Li i am not so sure as the Li battery in my lap tops always seemed to loose charge when not in use (and yes not in standby either).
 
Just booked this years Holiday to Madeira - flying with Thompson (good arrival and departure times to maximise lying in the sun time  :028: , well I mean you can't build sand castles on Madeira :110: ) on a 787 Dreamliner  :005: .  Do you think they will allow me to take a fire extinguisher, oxygen hood, burn bandages and a parachute on the plane with me  :156: .
 
Andy
 :149:
 
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Bifferman on 04 February, 2014, 02:14:08 PM
*Originally Posted by Rev Ken [+]
Would the battery fires on the latest passenger aircraft be LI?

Ken, I think the batteries on the DC3 were lead acid accumulators  :164:
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: richardcbf on 04 February, 2014, 02:32:53 PM
*Originally Posted by Bifferman [+]
Was it not HP and Dell who had exploding/self igniting Li batteries in their lap tops a few years ago.  I got a free replacement Li battery for my HP and no issue with old one.
 
RogerG.  AGM batteries hold their charge for a very long time, as for Li i am not so sure as the Li battery in my lap tops always seemed to loose charge when not in use (and yes not in standby either)....
...
Andy
 :149:
This might interest you....

The Economist explains
Why lithium batteries keep catching fire
Jan 27th 2014, 23:50 by P.M.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/01/economist-explains-19 (http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/01/economist-explains-19)
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Bifferman on 04 February, 2014, 02:48:47 PM
*Originally Posted by richardcbf [+]
This might interest you....

The Economist explains
Why lithium batteries keep catching fire
Jan 27th 2014, 23:50 by P.M.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/01/economist-explains-19 (http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/01/economist-explains-19)

Thanks Richard, You were right it did tickle my curiosity.  Have to say though that I was starting to loose it by the time I was getting towards the end of paragraph three.  Apparently cooling a Li cell with water helps (CO2 would be useless although wet foam would be good) but I have never seen a fire hose on an aircraft  :012: .
 
Andy
 :149:
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Rev Ken on 04 February, 2014, 04:33:50 PM
*Originally Posted by Bifferman [+]

Ken, I think the batteries on the DC3 were lead acid accumulators  :164:

Only the later versions - the ones I used to fly on were prepared by winding the propeller to 'charge' the elastic drive. :010:
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: RogerG on 20 February, 2015, 09:53:37 AM
Just an update to my original post....

I have a CB1300 as well as a CBF1000. Both Bikes have sat in an isolated garage unused since before Xmas. There is no power in the garage. Recently I tried to start the CB1300 – battery completely flat. I then tried the Biffer, when the Ignition was turned on, the Gammatronic voltage indicator said bucket loads of power – turned the key and the engine burst into life.
14 Months ago I fitted one of these to the Biffer – money well spent I reckon.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110948321324?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110948321324?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Bifferman on 20 February, 2015, 12:13:49 PM
I like the idea of the LIon batteries now they seem to have settled down a bit from the early ones.  Means I would have to buy another CTEX specifically for LIon batteries to go with it  :084: .
 
Andy
 
 :149:
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: richardcbf on 20 February, 2015, 02:16:53 PM
*Originally Posted by Bifferman [+]
I like the idea of the LIon batteries now they seem to have settled down a bit from the early ones.  Means I would have to buy another CTEX specifically for LIon batteries to go with it  :084: .
 
Andy
 
 :149:
Why?
I understood from what Roger wrote that the Li-Po battery, as fitted to his CBF1000, had been unused and without a charger/maintainer connected for over 2 months and the engine started fine.
Also, according to this item listing for the same battery.....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lithium-Ion-12V-Motorcycle-Battery-Race-Lightweight-High-Power-LIPO07C-YTX7A-BS-/221522837304 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lithium-Ion-12V-Motorcycle-Battery-Race-Lightweight-High-Power-LIPO07C-YTX7A-BS-/221522837304)
....."Easy charging with any standard 12V battery charger (NB should not be used with any charger which includes an anti-sulphation cycle)"

Other than that, I do like the concept, although the suggestion of the particular battery is puzzling to me, bearing in mind the ratings of the oem (e.g., Yuasa) CBF1000 battery of 8.6Ah and 190 CCA.
i.e.,
"- replaces YTX7A-BS
- greater cranking power 40CA+"
&
"-LIPO07C is to replace the YTX7A-BS which is a 6Ah lead acid unit
- The CCA rating of LIPO07C is 105 Amps"

 :027:
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: richardcbf on 17 October, 2015, 01:20:23 PM
*Originally Posted by RogerG [+]
My Girlfriend brought me a new battery for Xmas for my CBF1000.....

An update from Roger...
*Originally Posted by RogerG [+]
Re: Lithium ion?
« Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 02:38:37 PM »

My Bike has been using a Lithium battery for the last 21 months. The bike is kept in an isolated garage and has never seen a charger despite being left for 2 months unused at a time. Since fitting the Lithium battery the Bike always ‘bursts’ into life which never happened even with a new, genuine stock battery – best £75 I have ever spent.
Hey Roger, I suppose we all end up paying, in one way or another, for what our partners get us?  :007:
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Crispy on 23 February, 2020, 07:14:55 PM
It seems lithium ion batteries work better on bikes with no accessories, like mine. The thread is now 5 years old, has any CBF owners bought one of these batteries since and can recommend one to buy?


(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=sgbikerboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Skyrch-Lithium.jpg)



Pros: Performance, lighter weight, modern, very slow discharge when bike sat for long periods, higher cranking power.

Cons: Expensive, doesn’t like cold temperatures, can’t handle parasitic draw as well as lead acid batteries, probably have to buy a charger that’s compatible with lithium ion.

 :177:
Title: Re: Relatively cheap Lithion Ion battery
Post by: Yata on 04 March, 2020, 12:14:31 PM
*Originally Posted by Crispy [+]
It seems lithium ion batteries work better on bikes with no accessories, like mine. The thread is now 5 years old, has any CBF owners bought one of these batteries since and can recommend one to buy?

I was just thinking the same. It would be nice to know how the lithium ion battery has performed over the five years.
and an update on what battery was used as all the links are 5 years old and just have error messages.
 :465: