Author Topic: Cold bike takes long crancking  (Read 3861 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

#60

Offline Scootyman

  • CBF Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
  • Bike: CBF1000A6
  • City / Town: Dunfermline
  • Country: scotland
Re: Cold bike takes long crancking
Reply #60 on: 14 May, 2021, 08:36:45 PM
Im actually interested in Mohs experiences with BMWs. I think you mentioned Moh that you had one or two and its a bike that might interest me in the future.
Still keeping the CBF for the time being mind.

#61

Offline MohKraats

  • CBF Pro
  • ***
  • Topic Author
  • Posts: 111
  • Bike: CBF1000F
  • City / Town: Almere
  • Country: nl
Re: Cold bike takes long crancking
Reply #61 on: 15 May, 2021, 09:27:08 AM
Hello Scootyman,

Couple of years ago, I lived in Switzerland for a short period.
I always rode a Honda VFR750F and was ever happy on that one,
but,
I happened to trip over a nice R1100RT with catalist with just 23.000 kms on the dial.
So, because so many people kind of look up to BMW as something to dream of,
I took my chance and purchased the bike.
And yes, the riding position is very nice.
Wind protection is great.
Plenty storage posibilities on board.
But,
Point of gravity is quite high (with a boxer engine with this size cylinders has to be mounted high to prevent the cylinders scraping the asfalt.
Going into a corner feels like laying an elephant on ts side. (as referred to like this by BMW riders too, I got the frase from them to be honest)
The engine just didn`t run nice.
Missing strokes, a very slow regulating ECM, Very lean mixture.
The gearbox is a pain. the bike has power, higher up in the revs.
But when you pull through into higher rpms, in the lower gears, the gearbox just refuses to change up to the next gear.
The gear pedal is like frosen.
Well, of course such is not really an issue, since you are not supposed to race such bike anyway.

I do have a whole list of what I improved on on my bike, so if interested I could post to.
First this:

With that began my quest to have it not only looking nice, but running nice too.
When digging in and collecting information, it surpriced me how poor the design quality is.
In the BMW riders community, the general complaint is that BMW does do its development over the back of their customers.
The design is too often fine tuned based on the feedback about issues they obtain from their customers.
Things like KFR are a widely know issue amongst BMW riders. (boxer model)

Well, pondering about it, people showing fully content with their bikes it makes sense in a way.
After spending such a load of cash on your bike, of course you don`t want to be seen as an idiot by doing so.
So, what do you do ? You play nice weather.
Tell everyone you have the best bike in the world.

Anyway, when I got the bike to an old timer that had been repairing BMW`s all his life, even been racing them,
I told him that I used to ride a Honda, and now had bought this BMW.
He just couldn`t understand.
He asked me: how in hell can it be that a Honda rider ever buys a BMW.
Never ever met someone before that was used to a Honda, and still wanted to ride a BMW.

Regarding other BMW riders:

I did have a colleague back there, that did have a newer BMW.
So I asked him about the bike, how it was.
He said: well if there is anything with my bike, I just bring it to the dealership and have it fixed.
So I asked him: Where is your bike?, can I see what bike you have ?
But he answered: Sorry its at the dealership now, because I want to take it out for a ride in two weeks.......

Example on issues:
I happened to read a blog from a BMW rider that showed the life line of a R1100RT.
The owner was very proud to list all the happenings from scratch till over 120.000 kms.
He was full of his great bike.
Well, going through his list,
It struck me, that the longest stretch he has managed without a problem was 2.000 km.
The list even included a complete gearbox replacement.

I talked to a mechanic that does do maintenance and repair on the police bikes, brand BMW.
He told me that especially the cardan is one of the things having problems frequently.
Of course, those bikes do make miles.
But that is the point isn`t it ??  Making miles ??

BMW riders refer to riding a BMW bike as something emotional.

Well, I have to admit they are right.
I always became very emotional when riding mine

So, in the end, I just sold it, because I couldn`t improve it any further without loads of cash, and it still didn`t run nice.
Further improvement would require to replace the ECM by an aftermarket type , this for a couple of thousands of euros.

Ah, anyway,
Don`t blame me if you have problems with a BMW.
Its a way of live.
If you don`t fancy such way of life, you should buy a different bike.
Last Edit: 15 May, 2021, 09:48:31 AM by MohKraats

#62

Offline MohKraats

  • CBF Pro
  • ***
  • Topic Author
  • Posts: 111
  • Bike: CBF1000F
  • City / Town: Almere
  • Country: nl
Re: Cold bike takes long crancking
Reply #62 on: 15 May, 2021, 10:13:36 AM
Ah, well, since I am staring at my screen anyway,

despite this being a CBF1000 forum,
there is some interesting info in this info anyway.
Like the bit on sparkplugs ... (I did put same type of plugs, though not same partnumber...., in my CBF1000F too, with noticeable results)



My BMW R1100 improvements

Changes:

- Different engine oil
- Additive in the gearbox
- Additive in the differential
- Different spark plugs
- Different O2 sensor, including additional electronics


- Engine Oil

A moto cycle usually has an oil with reduced friction, to accommodate a wet clutch, which is very common used.
A BMW like the R1100 does however, have a dry clutch.
There is, therefore, no reason to cut back the lubrication of the engine oil.
For that reason, I do apply car engine oil.
I chose 10W60 oil, full synthetic.
Some people do take the cheap 10W40 oil for cost reason.
However, prescribed is the 10W50. That is for a reason.
The 50 stands for a temperature range up to a higher temperature.
At slow speeds in hot weather (traffic jam in summertime in the city) the  engine can heat up considerably.
If you take the 10W40, the oil will turn to thin, and one is at risk to experience an oil-film rip, which causes cylinder damage.
Next to that, there can be a higher oil consumption expected.
Oil that leaves through youre exhaust, fauling up the cylinder and sparkplug, and after that the O2 sensor and clogging up the Catalist converter after that.
So, not so cheap solution after all.
I went for the save side and took 10W60 (a 0W60 might be to thin at cold engine, and cause additional oil consumption because of that)


- Gearbox and Differential

To reduce wear and noise and improve gear changing, I have added "Fin Gear" to both the gearbox and the differential.
This is a teflon additive, that stays afloat in the oil. That does mean that it is not permanent. At each oil change the teflon will exit together with the oil.
The teflon however forms an additional, slippery buffer between the metal parts, therewith reducing wear, but also damping impact when metal parts come together, therewith reducing noise.

- Spark plug

To improve ignitability of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinders, one needs to change the sparkplugs.
There are several things about that to keep an eye on.
To improve the spark, the electrodes of the plug should be as thin as possible (avoid multi-electrode plugs, since they only devide the energy over those electrodes, therewith requiring more energy to spark.
Next to that, is the metal of the sparkplug colder that the ignited air/fuel mixture.
One should, therefore keep the sparkplug metal as far away from the igniting fuel mixture as possible. Again: as thin electrodes as possible.
But also here could the U-groove in the ground electrode help to give the igniting mixture more room to expand, before hitting the cooler metal earth electrode.
And offcourse a tapered ground electrode, which takes even more metal away from the igniting mixture.
The plug that combines those characteristics the best,
is the Denso IK22,
Effect is the most on starting and idling, and lean mixture conditions.
https://www.denso.com/global/en/products-and-services/automotive-service-parts-and-accessories/plug/iridiumpower
an Iridium plug with a center electrode of only 0.4mm in diameter.


- O2 sensor

This motor by default works with a switching O2 sensor.
That means the mixture is fixed at Lambda 1.
Since that is quite lean, I have replaced that sensor by a wide band sensor, in order to change the mixture setting.
I used a sensor including control electronics that such sensor requires from PLX
This PLX control box features a linear analog output signal and a switched output.
The bikes ECM needs a switched signal, but the switching signal from the box switches at Lambda 1.
So I have made a small electronic circuitry that converts the analog output into a switching signal, but then with an adjustable switching point.
On my bike I adjusted the switching point to switch at approx 1:14.2 in stead of the 1:14.7 (lambda 1)
I adjsuted on a nice idling and good pick up at the throttle, taking care not going too rich.
14.2 turned out to be just nice. It really improved drivability.
Setting to rich will also quite quick faul up the O2 sensor..... en the rest of the exhaust system with coal.
Ah, and yeah, this could also be done with a power commander, yes.

My source for the O2 sensor and control box:
http://www.plxdevices.com/Wideband-O2-Air-Fuel-Ratio-Sensor-Module-p/897346002726.htm


Last Edit: 15 May, 2021, 10:14:13 AM by MohKraats

#63

Online Art

  • CBF Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
  • Bike: SC58 CBF1000 A-6
  • City / Town: Shoreditch
  • Country: england
Re: Cold bike takes long crancking
Reply #63 on: 15 May, 2021, 12:17:34 PM
Keeping in mind this is the internet I'm wondering what qualifications MohKratts has to make such reaching statements?

#64

Offline MohKraats

  • CBF Pro
  • ***
  • Topic Author
  • Posts: 111
  • Bike: CBF1000F
  • City / Town: Almere
  • Country: nl
Re: Cold bike takes long crancking
Reply #64 on: 15 May, 2021, 12:22:29 PM
Remains the question:
Why the hell did I buy that bike in the first place ???

Well, looking back, being honest, (doubting myself too) :187:
I was blinded by the BMW badge.
A chance to get a real BMW with low mileage too, was blinding. :034:

Foolish me.  :112:
mea culpa :138:


#65

Online Art

  • CBF Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
  • Bike: SC58 CBF1000 A-6
  • City / Town: Shoreditch
  • Country: england
Re: Cold bike takes long crancking
Reply #65 on: 15 May, 2021, 12:30:33 PM
Keeping in mind this is the internet I'm wondering what qualifications MohKratts has to make such reaching statements?

Maybe, as previously mentioned, if he kept to the recommended air filter, spark plugs and used a multigrade oil in keeping with the ambient temperatures of where the motorcycle is used starting would be nearer to his liking.

Air filter - K&N air filters allow a greater volume of air and a leaner fuel:air mixture where as for cold starts you need a slightly richer fuel:air mixture.

Engine oil - Typically here in Europe the CBF needs a 10/30 or 10/40 multigrade. Thicker multigrades will cause the starter motor to struggle cranking the engine on cold starts but not once the oil has been circulated when the engine has reached normal operating temperature.

Spark plugs - Have a heat range, use a plug outside the heat range of the SC57E engine could result in difficult cold starts.

Any of this sounding familar??
Last Edit: 15 May, 2021, 12:32:00 PM by Art

#66

Offline MohKraats

  • CBF Pro
  • ***
  • Topic Author
  • Posts: 111
  • Bike: CBF1000F
  • City / Town: Almere
  • Country: nl
Re: Cold bike takes long crancking
Reply #66 on: 15 May, 2021, 12:36:25 PM
*Originally Posted by Art [+]
Keeping in mind this is the internet I'm wondering what qualifications MohKratts has to make such reaching statements?

You are right asking such, Art.

Well, it runs kind of in the family.
Have been working on vehicles from before I was legally allowed to drive, starting with mopeds, working my way up.
Having done losts of types of repair, but also modifications on all kinds of cars.
Up (or down depending how you see it) to the level of gearbox repair, engine head repair, car conversion auto to manual gear,
Have built a sequential injection LPG installation into a car with continuous mechanical fuel injection. done the mapping myself too.
Driven it for 60.000kms without a problem.
My brother is chef mechanic in a universal car workshop, so there one picks up a lot,
Myself I am electronics engineer.
I have worked many years at the european headquarter of one of the bigger car parts producers, where amongst others,
I was first line support for car makers in area of diagnostic equipment,
and I have designed and built ECM test benches for first response testing ECM`s that were rejected on the production line at the car makers.
One of my direct colleagues was the sparkplug specialist, from which I picked up a lot of knowledge too.
Myself, I was the O2 sensor specialist there.

Well, I am kind of an enthusiastic hobbyist on the loose, one could say.

At the moment, I am doing design work for equipment in the scientific research sector.

Greez,
Moh

#67

Offline MohKraats

  • CBF Pro
  • ***
  • Topic Author
  • Posts: 111
  • Bike: CBF1000F
  • City / Town: Almere
  • Country: nl
Re: Cold bike takes long crancking
Reply #67 on: 15 May, 2021, 12:39:49 PM
*Originally Posted by Art [+]
Keeping in mind this is the internet I'm wondering what qualifications MohKratts has to make such reaching statements?

Maybe, as previously mentioned, if he kept to the recommended air filter, spark plugs and used a multigrade oil in keeping with the ambient temperatures of where the motorcycle is used starting would be nearer to his liking.

Air filter - K&N air filters allow a greater volume of air and a leaner fuel:air mixture where as for cold starts you need a slightly richer fuel:air mixture.

Engine oil - Typically here in Europe the CBF needs a 10/30 or 10/40 multigrade. Thicker multigrades will cause the starter motor to struggle cranking the engine on cold starts but not once the oil has been circulated when the engine has reached normal operating temperature.

Spark plugs - Have a heat range, use a plug outside the heat range of the SC57E engine could result in difficult cold starts.

Any of this sounding familar??

Hello Art,
Right
The specifics I mentioned apply to the R1100RT,
So, values mentioned there should not be taken for a CBF.
Was only intended to enlighten my comments on the R1100RT

Hmm,
Maybe should not have posted that here  :138:

Greez,
Moh
Last Edit: 15 May, 2021, 12:45:13 PM by MohKraats

#68

Offline MohKraats

  • CBF Pro
  • ***
  • Topic Author
  • Posts: 111
  • Bike: CBF1000F
  • City / Town: Almere
  • Country: nl
Re: Cold bike takes long crancking
Reply #68 on: 15 May, 2021, 01:10:32 PM
Air filter - K&N air filters allow a greater volume of air and a leaner fuel:air mixture where as for cold starts you need a slightly richer fuel:air mixture.

Engine oil - Typically here in Europe the CBF needs a 10/30 or 10/40 multigrade. Thicker multigrades will cause the starter motor to struggle cranking the engine on cold starts but not once the oil has been circulated when the engine has reached normal operating temperature.

Spark plugs - Have a heat range, use a plug outside the heat range of the SC57E engine could result in difficult cold starts.

Any of this sounding familar??


Air Filter:
SInce the CBF runs on a fixed mapping, set up for a catalist, the standard mixture is alread quite lean.
Using a K&N filter on such bike is not recommendable, since the mixture will end up even leaner.
You might notice that in the bike starting to miss strokes when on very low or even zero load situation.
Feels like your bike having the hick ups.
Such situation will worsen when tapping E10 fuel, since the bike will not compensate for the different fuel.
Another side effect will be that your engine and the sparkplugs will have a harder life, because all will get a bit hotter again, where that original lean mixture will already burn quite hot.
(could that be the reason Honda subscribes the VUH24D ?? which is an extra robust plug)

Engine oil, I would certainly not go thicker.
First of all, I would get a full synthetic oil, then keep the 10W40, unless there is reason to use a wider temperature range.

Spark plugs,
Prescribed there is a.o. the Denso VUH24D, which is a long life plug.
It became long life because of the center electrode being made out of Iridium, which hardly wears.
The mass electrode does have a platinum disk mounted, from which the spark sparks.
Also the platinum hardly wears, where normal metal electrode would wear of due to the temperature of the spark.
Under normal conditions it should hold almost forever, when treated correctly.
Worst mistreatment is overtighting the plug.
Most plugs do have a gasket ring, which consist of rolled up plate.
When you install teh plug correctly, you screw it in by hand till it sits, then give it a little extra with tooling (e,g, an extra 90 degree)
The lettle extra will quetsch the gasket a bit, ensuring good gas tight result.
But you can imagine, that when quetching, the gasket at some point ends up flat, and annot be quetched any further.
At that point, it is time to replace the plug by a new one.
Because, if continue to tighten with a flat gasket, one will start straching the plug housing.
Since the housing holds the isolator, stretching it will cause the isolator te get loose. (ever heard a car whistling ?? that`s how it does)

Anyway, I have fitted my CBF with a variation on the prescribed Iridium plug
I fitted the IUH24D.
I allowed myself, since i have also fitted a power commander, and had it mapped on a bench to improve the mixture.
After that, I noticed the fan doesn`t kick in so quickly anymore, when lining up in front of the traffic lights when it is busy in town.
Therefore concluding the engine burns a but less hot, so I could allow me the IUH24D.

So far from my side.

Greez,
Moh
I chose those plugs to improve starting and idling behaviour, where these plugs do make a difference when not such a big difference compared to the VUH24D.

#69

Online Art

  • CBF Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
  • Bike: SC58 CBF1000 A-6
  • City / Town: Shoreditch
  • Country: england
Re: Cold bike takes long crancking
Reply #69 on: 15 May, 2021, 01:42:24 PM
I only replied to the specifics you mentioned in relation to your CBF!

*Originally Posted by MohKraats [+]
... I did put same type of plugs (Denso IK22) though not same partnumber...., in my CBF1000

*Originally Posted by MohKraats [+]
... Air filter is clean and of the K&N type.

I mention the engine oil and probably should have mentioned the engine oil filter too, because itemised service history appears to be unknown. Contaminated engine oil and/or a clogged oil filter could cause the starter motor to struggle resulting in prolonged cranking, especially when cold not so much when warm.

So the bottom line here is you've deviated from the recommended spark plugs, you've deviated from the recommended pattern of air filter, you've fitted a power commander and had it remapped to compensate for the deviations. All of which may or may not have had some effect on the engine's normal operating temperature and/or the ECT sensor. Now you wonder why, in your opinion, the engine requires extended cranking from cold to fire up.


 


diverse-leafy