Author Topic: ABS newb: what do I need to know?  (Read 3033 times)

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#10

Offline sambaman

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Re: ABS newb: what do I need to know?
Reply #10 on: 24 November, 2020, 06:32:12 AM
Crispy, that's right.. The non-abs biffer brakes aren't linked and the front calipers are 2-piston.

This is starting to sound like a nightmare. Is it worth it? I spoke to a guy on the CBF1000 Facebook group who had de-linked them. Seems like a lot of trouble to go to.
If you can't change your Mark 1 stator with your eyes shut: you haven't been riding your bike enough....

#11

Offline sambaman

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Re: ABS newb: what do I need to know?
Reply #11 on: 24 November, 2020, 08:23:07 AM
*Originally Posted by sambaman [+]
Brilliant. Thanks for.your help Art

So I've just checked it again and here's what's happening:

The battery at rest this morning was at 12.65V.

Low beam / no accessories - 13.5V at idle rising to 13.9V by 3000rpm and then it starts to decrease if you hold it steady or increase the revs. It goes down to about 13.4 so would basically not be charging while riding!

High beam plus hazards - it's basically the same but 12.2V at idle and goes up to 12.8V and then starts to decrease. So running heated grips for example would be a no no.

I haven't checked the AC stator output yet as I had assumed it would be ok on a new unit. Maybe I should do that next and clean up the connections and earth. After that, if the stator checks out and I'm still getting the same results, what would you do next?

I know the RR is there to stop the battery from getting fried. But if they go wrong, could there be various outcomes?
If you can't change your Mark 1 stator with your eyes shut: you haven't been riding your bike enough....

#12

Offline Art

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Re: ABS newb: what do I need to know?
Reply #12 on: 24 November, 2020, 02:29:04 PM
So having got a healthy (ish) 13.9v at 3,000 RPM and noting it drops to 13.4v if held steady or RPM increased. What happens if you then slow the engine to 1,200 RPM and then increase to 3,000 RPM again? Do you get the same results 13.5v at 1,200 RPM, 13.9v at 3,000 RPM and 13.4v at 4,000 RPM? I'd be testing the wiring for voltage drop between the regulator/rectifier output and the battery terminals, idiots guide as below.

Select the 20v DC range on the multimeter and with the ignition switched on but the engine not running check that the voltage across the regulator/rectifier red and green output cables is equal to the voltage across the battery terminals.

Connect the black multimeter probe to the battery positive terminal, connect the red multimeter probe to the regulator/rectifier red output cable, with the engine running at 1,200 RPM expect less than 0.2v. If greater than 0.2v disconnect, clean and check all terminals, connections and the main 30A fuse in the positive (red) cable between the regulator/rectifier and the battery positive terminal.

Connect the red multimeter probe to the battery negative terminal, connect the black multimeter probe to the regulator/rectifier green output cable, with the engine running at 1,200 RPM expect less than 0.2v. If greater than 0.2v disconnect, clean and check all terminals, connections and chassis ground points in the negative (green) cable between the regulator/rectifier, chassis grounds and the battery negative terminal. Or splice a 27A ground cable into the green cable on the loom side of the regulator/rectifier connector and run this direct to the battery negative terminal.



#13

Offline sambaman

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Re: ABS newb: what do I need to know?
Reply #13 on: 24 November, 2020, 07:20:26 PM
Wow, ok. Sounds like you've done this before!

Thanks so much for taking the time to guide me through this.

I've got a bit more time tomorrow so I'll have a fettle.

Cheers
If you can't change your Mark 1 stator with your eyes shut: you haven't been riding your bike enough....

#14

Offline sambaman

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Re: ABS newb: what do I need to know?
Reply #14 on: 25 November, 2020, 11:50:55 AM
*Originally Posted by Art [+]
So having got a healthy (ish) 13.9v at 3,000 RPM and noting it drops to 13.4v if held steady or RPM increased. What happens if you then slow the engine to 1,200 RPM and then increase to 3,000 RPM again? Do you get the same results 13.5v at 1,200 RPM, 13.9v at 3,000 RPM and 13.4v at 4,000 RPM? I'd be testing the wiring for voltage drop between the regulator/rectifier output and the battery terminals, idiots guide as below.

Select the 20v DC range on the multimeter and with the ignition switched on but the engine not running check that the voltage across the regulator/rectifier red and green output cables is equal to the voltage across the battery terminals.

Connect the black multimeter probe to the battery positive terminal, connect the red multimeter probe to the regulator/rectifier red output cable, with the engine running at 1,200 RPM expect less than 0.2v. If greater than 0.2v disconnect, clean and check all terminals, connections and the main 30A fuse in the positive (red) cable between the regulator/rectifier and the battery positive terminal.

Connect the red multimeter probe to the battery negative terminal, connect the black multimeter probe to the regulator/rectifier green output cable, with the engine running at 1,200 RPM expect less than 0.2v. If greater than 0.2v disconnect, clean and check all terminals, connections and chassis ground points in the negative (green) cable between the regulator/rectifier, chassis grounds and the battery negative terminal. Or splice a 27A ground cable into the green cable on the loom side of the regulator/rectifier connector and run this direct to the battery negative terminal.

In answer to the first question: yes it does the same thing if you let it go back to idle, then increase the revs again. It's as if the RR is kicking in at a reduced ceiling or something like that.

The voltage across the RR's outputs measures the same as across the battery terminals and the voltage drop on the wiring between the RR and battery is about 1.6V on both positive and negative.

The output of the stator is healthy as expected but at least that is ruled out.

I cleaned up and greased the battery terminals, main earth and RR connectors. Also the main fuse connections, which looked the most dirty, and I hoped I'd get better results after cleaning them but it was pretty much the same.

I tested resistance between the RR terminals and the results were all over the place. I watched a video once showing roughly what the readings should be (mainly that there should be consistency) and I couldn't even make notes of the readings because the numbers never stayed still! I certainly couldn't say that I found consistency.

So I'm thinking that the RR needs replacing. What do you reckon Art? You clearly have more experience.

Cheers,

Chris
If you can't change your Mark 1 stator with your eyes shut: you haven't been riding your bike enough....

#15

Offline Art

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Re: ABS newb: what do I need to know?
Reply #15 on: 25 November, 2020, 03:41:05 PM
*Originally Posted by sambaman [+]
... the voltage drop on the wiring between the RR and battery is about 1.6V on both positive and negative.

Diagnosis over the internet is not ideal but I'd suspect that 1.6v drop to be the problem, unless you're misreading a 0.16v drop which is more in line with what I'd expect. Double check your results and to be sure, to be sure, connect a temporary jumper cable between the RR green outlet cable and the battery negative terminal and check the voltage drop again. Make sure you're getting a good contact with the probes, back probing the RR connector green cable and probing the battery negative terminal not the battery negative lead. Its odd that you'd get the same high voltage drop on both the positive and negative cables.

All you can do to test the RR is to test the output which you've done (13.9v) and test the diodes which is explained in  ElectroSport's Diode Testing Procedure - Download it here  Note the Honda RR negative output cable is coloured green not black and it is a MOFFET RR so for the "Forward Bias: Top 3 Diodes - Test 1" (black test probe to red cable and red test probe to yellow cables) expect the readouts to be 0.1v not 0.4v to 0.6v




Last Edit: 25 November, 2020, 03:52:07 PM by Art

#16

Offline sambaman

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Re: ABS newb: what do I need to know?
Reply #16 on: 25 November, 2020, 04:42:15 PM
*Originally Posted by Art [+]
Diagnosis over the internet is not ideal but I'd suspect that 1.6v drop to be the problem, unless you're misreading a 0.16v drop which is more in line with what I'd expect. Double check your results and to be sure, to be sure, connect a temporary jumper cable between the RR green outlet cable and the battery negative terminal and check the voltage drop again. Make sure you're getting a good contact with the probes, back probing the RR connector green cable and probing the battery negative terminal not the battery negative lead. Its odd that you'd get the same high voltage drop on both the positive and negative cables.

All you can do to test the RR is to test the output which you've done (13.9v) and test the diodes which is explained in  ElectroSport's Diode Testing Procedure - Download it here  Note the Honda RR negative output cable is coloured green not black and it is a MOFFET RR so for the "Forward Bias: Top 3 Diodes - Test 1" (black test probe to red cable and red test probe to yellow cables) expect the readouts to be 0.1v not 0.4v to 0.6v

Thanks Arr, you're a legend. I probably read the multimeter wrong. I've not had it long and it auto selects the range. It went into mV and I probably converted them wrong but I'll check tomorrow while I'm testing the RR.

Many thanks
If you can't change your Mark 1 stator with your eyes shut: you haven't been riding your bike enough....

#17

Offline sambaman

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Re: ABS newb: what do I need to know?
Reply #17 on: 26 November, 2020, 03:36:35 PM
Right so I think I've finally got to the bottom of this but would still appreciate your opinion.

I re-tested the comparative voltage at the battery as I stupidly didn't have the ignition on last time.
Across the battery terminals I got 12.2V and 11.9V between the two RR output wires. No idea what that indicates to be honest! I'm losing 0.3V in the loom somehow?

I re-measured voltage drop between the RR and battery and got o.15V on the positive and 0.1V on the negative.

I tested the diodes of the RR and got clear results:

Forward Bias top: 0.100/0.100/0.100
Reverse Bias top: DL / DL / DL
Forward Bias bottom: 0.450/0.450/0.450
Reverse Bias bottom: DL / DL / DL

This says to me the RR is on it's way out. West Country Windings do one that connects straight to the battery so I was thinking of doing that. What do you think Art?

The battery is charging when I ride the bike, but with the figures I'm getting I wouldn't feel confident to add any extra load and I really want to get heated grips on there for the winter!

Thanks again for all your help Art. As you can tell, I'm pretty clueless about all this stuff. I'm just having a go and enjoying learning what I can along the way from others and from books.

Cheers,

Chris

If you can't change your Mark 1 stator with your eyes shut: you haven't been riding your bike enough....

#18

Offline Art

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Re: ABS newb: what do I need to know?
Reply #18 on: 26 November, 2020, 06:39:38 PM
The 0.3v drop between the battery and the RR output cables is not the end of the world but it does suggest there may be a poor connection, cable, fuse or ground point somewhere between the two. The voltage could be dropping from the time you take the reading at the battery to when you take the reading at the RR, go back and forth taking several readings at each end to see if that brings them any closer together. The diode test results are more or less as I'd expect them to be which means there is nothing wrong with the rectifier side of the RR that leaves the regulator side. So how to test that?

Well you already have where you got 13.9v at 3,000 RPM dropping off to 13.4v at 4,000 RPM. Its probably safe to say the regulator is shunting (switching off) at too low a voltage and needs replacing but that has to be your call. If your satisfied that the wiring is satisfactory replace the RR.

If it was mine I'd replace it with a direct fit replacement. The wiring can always be modified to connect direct to the battery if you wanted or needed to, just remember the positive cable must connect via a 30A fuse as close to the battery as possible.
Last Edit: 26 November, 2020, 06:46:40 PM by Art

#19

Offline jm2

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Re: ABS newb: what do I need to know?
Reply #19 on: 27 November, 2020, 11:13:24 PM
*Originally Posted by sambaman [+]
...
Across the battery terminals I got 12.2V and 11.9V between the two RR output wires. No idea what that indicates to be honest! I'm losing 0.3V in the loom somehow?
...
I think you are measuring this slightly wrong.

If ignition on, engine not running, you have 0.3v drop (total, 0.15v each leg say) into the (output) of the RR then this is all wrong.  No current should flow, no voltage drop should be measured.

If this is engine running, then it is still wrong on two accounts. 1) there is no charging output when measured and 2) the voltage drop is too high.

Do yourself a favour; carefully (meters on current will easily pop their protection fuse), with everything switched off then disconnect the battery +ve and connect it through your multimeter (on DC I) and measure any idle draw.  It ought to be zero but Honda allow for 0.2mA plus anything from the hiss led.  If it is significant, leave it all in place (monitoring the current draw) and unplug the RR to see if it drops away to near zero.
Only do it right - no bodging please.   Keeper of the failed stator list.   John.