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Offline Shed

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Re: CBF Engine Oil 10W30 vs 10W40 Synthetic vs Mineral
« Reply #10 on: 31 October, 2020, 09:23:13 PM »
I remember that there was no problem with oil working in the days of folklore, long before the empirical wisdom of the internet and drawings of molecules.
The days before fully synthetic was invented in the 70's & semi synthetic was invented in the 60's?

Take a hundred bikes on the road, you wouldn't have the slightest idea what oil, or mix of oil, was in each, unless you chemically analysed it, or looked at the label before putting it in. And given there is no international agreed single standard on what constitutes 'fully synthetic', your particular blend of such could be very different to another manufactures blend. You wouldn't have the slightest idea what ingredients were in those different oils.

The point is that 10w 30 & 10w 40 worked then and it'll still work now. Whatever you want to pay for it is up to the individual.
« Last Edit: 31 October, 2020, 09:35:08 PM by Shed »

Offline Shed

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Re: CBF Engine Oil 10W30 vs 10W40 Synthetic vs Mineral
« Reply #11 on: 31 October, 2020, 09:41:07 PM »
*Originally Posted by Crispy [+]
I’d rather use empirical evidence than folklore. That’s the problem with forums, too much assuming and lots of misunderstanding. But we get there in the end, albeit with needless agro.

I've looked through this thread and can't see any 'agro'.  :027:

Online Art

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Re: CBF Engine Oil 10W30 vs 10W40 Synthetic vs Mineral
« Reply #12 on: 01 November, 2020, 10:22:51 AM »
*Originally Posted by Crispy [+]
Hi Art,

They say wear is lessened with a fully synthetic oil which should reduce contamination. Also as the Biffer is fuel injected, there will be less fuel contamination in the oil, if the ignition system is working correctly. I’d be looking to change my oil after 18 months/8,000miles on fully synthetic, as long as I let it warm up and ride it at least once a week, for about an hour.

There’s a company in Germany called Oil Spy that do oil testing kits. Just put a dab of oil on the pad to see what’s happening inside your engine. €16.57 for 26 tests.

https://www.korrosionsschutz-depot.de/wartung/motoroel-analyse/

I'd not disagree with too much of that, I just have different habits. I've left my engine oil for two years before now but never any longer or for more than 8,000 miles. I never warm the engine before riding I just hit that starter button and hit the road. When I was on the road covering up to 40,000 miles a year fully synthetic was the only consideration with 20,000 mile service intervals, with lower annual mileage and shorter service intervals I've only ever considered semi-synthetic engine oil.

Contamination comes mostly in three forms wear & tear, blow by gasses and moisture. What wear and tear that doesn't get caught up in the oil filter gets caught up in the sludge and being heavier than the oil mostly lays in the bottom of the sump, hopefully getting flushed out with each oil change. The blow by gasses and moisture that don't evaporate get absorbed into the oil by the additives, overtime they can cause the oil to become corrosive especially if the additives breakdown which they will after about two years. If it was possible to remove the sources of contamination there would be little need to change the oil.

OPIE Oils have a number of interesting Motor Oil Technical Information files here

The German Company's website is in a language I do not understand. I'm assuming the 26 tests are for one engine oil analysis testing for various contaminations/additives. Are they like DNA or blood tests where you send the samples back to a lab for analysis or are they like litmus paper acidity tests where the test strips change colour?

Offline Crispy

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Re: CBF Engine Oil 10W30 vs 10W40 Synthetic vs Mineral
« Reply #13 on: 01 November, 2020, 12:15:57 PM »
The OPIE website is quite informative, I like the quote on oil viscosity: “ Viscosity is the most misunderstood aspect of oil and yet it is the most important.

Warming up my bike before I set off is just a routine I’ve always done. I let it run whilst I check the bike and gear up.

The Oil Spy test do indeed work on the same principal you mentioned. It’s less than 1 Euro per test. Here’s a quote translated into English.

The engine oil analysis is an effective tool for detecting malfunctions in the combustion engine. With Oil Spy you have a comparatively inexpensive method at your disposal to obtain information about the condition of the engine oil.

Oil Spy gives you a quick and easy overview of the condition of the engine oil. You only need a drop of oil and after only 15 - 30 minutes you can see whether and how much the load with:

- soot
- water (condensation / cooling water)
- fuel (brought in by condensates, among other things)
- as well as the general state of ageing of the oil.”


And here’s the instructions for use and explanation in English.

https://oilspy.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/motor_oilspy_en.pdf
Soichiro Honda, I salute you.

Offline Shed

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Re: CBF Engine Oil 10W30 vs 10W40 Synthetic vs Mineral
« Reply #14 on: 01 November, 2020, 12:24:15 PM »
Doesn't look like they've been doing a roaring trade via Facebook, as their page hasn't been updated in almost 9 years.  :oldie:

Never even heard of it til yesterday, despite decades of spannering, I wonder why that is? Sceptical? Of course.  :008:
 
Although for me, you've got eyes, fingers, and a nose which should assist you in spotting any of this, but each to their own. I'll suggest anyone who buys this is the type of person who'd be interested in purchasing the unadulterated magic of Evans' waterless coolant too.  :165:






Offline Crispy

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Re: CBF Engine Oil 10W30 vs 10W40 Synthetic vs Mineral
« Reply #15 on: 01 November, 2020, 12:51:49 PM »
Hi Shed, yeah each to there own etc. The Oil Spy dabs are very cheap, probably best ‘putting to’ with a few mates and share them out.

I went with Putoline Oils because they only make products for two wheels.

Putoline Oil only supplies products for motorised two-wheelers. It has done so since 1970! This makes Putoline Oil unique!

About Putoline:  https://www.putoline.com/en/about-putoline/

I can only write what I see, hear and feel. And I can definitely see, hear and feel a difference in the bike since I bought it. Although I admit I’ve done more than just change the viscosity of the oil - iridium spark plugs, cooling system etc.
« Last Edit: 01 November, 2020, 01:00:21 PM by Crispy »
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Online Art

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Re: CBF Engine Oil 10W30 vs 10W40 Synthetic vs Mineral
« Reply #16 on: 01 November, 2020, 01:39:58 PM »
If I was a gambling man I'd wager most of the improvements you're feeling through the ride are just down to the feel good factor of having done something. I always feel the motorcycle is performing better after some fettling, the reality is that it probably is but is there a big enough difference in the before and after for the rider to notice it? I doubt there ever would be unless it was running proper dog rough before the fettling.

Offline Crispy

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Re: CBF Engine Oil 10W30 vs 10W40 Synthetic vs Mineral
« Reply #17 on: 01 November, 2020, 01:58:26 PM »
I had thought about it just being the feel good factor, but I’ve witnessed with my eyes and ears that from a cold start the engine gets up to a ‘balanced’ level of air/fuel ratio much quicker than before. The ticking noise is a lot quieter (unless I’ve got some wax in my ears), better fuel econemy, and when I give it some throttle the power on the back wheel makes the seat drop, and I’ve left the rear shock on the same setting throughout. But it could also be just me getting more confident on the bike.


The fact that my oil is fully synthetic should command more attention than the viscosity. Synthetics are man-made and each company have different ways of making them. They provide far better performance, consistent molecular structure and purity.





PUTOLINE N-TECH® PRO R+ 10W-30 is the most advanced, fully synthetic 4-stroke engine oil ever produced by Putoline Oil.N-TECH® PRO R+ engine oil guarantees:

    Unsurpassed wet clutch performance and grip
    Extremely low wear for engine and transmission
    Minimal oil consumption
    Excellent viscosity properties even at low temperatures, which significantly prevents wear on cold starts
    Excellent cleaning properties ensures long-term and optimum engine performance
    Excellent lubrication properties throughout the entire service life This fully synthetic 4-stroke motorcycle engine oil has been designed particularly for road and race motorcycles that perform under the most demanding conditions.
« Last Edit: 01 November, 2020, 02:53:06 PM by Crispy »
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Online Art

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Re: CBF Engine Oil 10W30 vs 10W40 Synthetic vs Mineral
« Reply #18 on: 01 November, 2020, 06:57:21 PM »
Just you getting more confident on the bike. Doesn't fully synthetic engine oil start out life as a mineral oil base stock?

How does every brand of engine oil get away with hyping their products up to be various combinations of unsurpassed, extremely this, excellent that, world leading, ultimate, superior etc. Could it be they're making the comparison with a lower specification mineral engine oil of their own brand? It seems the one thing Putoline, Shell, Castrol, Mobil, Valvoline, Motul, Halfords or whoever agree on is

Your owner’s manual will tell you which industry specification, type and grade of oil the manufacturer specifies

I'll stay with the recommended Honda specification "or equivalent" in Motul's 4T 5000, besides I've got 8L sitting in the workshop  :016:

Did you know the Honda recommended engine oil (Honda 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil) is a semi-synthetic engine oil?

Offline Crispy

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Re: CBF Engine Oil 10W30 vs 10W40 Synthetic vs Mineral
« Reply #19 on: 01 November, 2020, 08:05:49 PM »
*Originally Posted by Art [+]
Doesn't fully synthetic engine oil start out life as a mineral oil base stock?

I’m no expert but apparently the synthetic base oil is a mix of ester and polyalphaolefin.

Polyalphaolefin does not contain ring structures, double bonds, sulphur, nitrogen components or waxy hydrocarbons. The absence of these structures and materials results in a very non-polar base oil with a high viscosity index (of approximately 130), excellent low-temperature flow and pour-point characteristics, good oxidation stability and compatibility with mineral oils, paints and seals commonly found in lube oil systems.


Honda may recommend a semi-synthetic oil, but that’s probably because fully synthetic shouldn’t be used on new engines during the bedding in process, where you cant go over x amount of RPMs for x amount of miles on a brand new bike.

And remember your 8 litres of Motul oil has a shelf life even if you don’t open it. Best get cracking with those 8,000 miles.


 :305:
Soichiro Honda, I salute you.