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Offline alexg

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Engine struggle to start
« on: 21 October, 2020, 02:34:38 PM »
After servicing my bike and installing back No10 and no11 springs "see attachment" (they was removed before by recommendation of service guy)
My MK1 A7 starter struggle to turn engine, i can hear it turning over but very slow, not fast  enough to fireup.
I can push start bike and it would run fine on any of the rpm.
Charging system works i can see 14v when driving.

I tried to connect to car battery, but no luck, it just starter motor struggle to turn.

Any one have an idea what it can be?

battery is about 3month old.
Bike did not have this issue before i reinstall springs back.

Offline Art

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Re: Engine struggle to start
« Reply #1 on: 21 October, 2020, 06:51:43 PM »
The answer is probably in the question. Why was it recommended to remove the anti judder spring and what was the decision to re-install it based on? Will the starter motor crank and start the engine with the clutch disengaged?

Do you suspect this to be a clutch issue or a starter motor issue?

Will the starter motor crank and start the engine with the clutch fully disengaged?

Offline alexg

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Re: Engine struggle to start
« Reply #2 on: 21 October, 2020, 07:25:25 PM »
"Why was it recommended to remove the anti judder spring and what was the decision to re-install it based on? "

-I had(and still have) issue with shifting gears, feels like shifting is not smooze and sometimes i don get proper clank when shifting. So service reccomended remove springs. They did that and checked clutch as well. this did not do any difference at all. Clutch is in good shape.

"Will the starter motor crank and start the engine with the clutch disengaged? "
-It will crank but wont start.
Today after bump starting and driving for a ~10min, i shut engine off, and tried to start again, it barely cranked, but did started engine, i shut it again, and was unable to start anymore.

Feels like there is not enough juse in the battery. Battery fully charged, and even with help of the car battery, feels same.

It maybe starter motor, but why it suddenly become 'weak' after installing those springs.

I tied rocking back and force with gear on, this did not helped.
« Last Edit: 21 October, 2020, 07:28:08 PM by alexg »

Offline Art

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Re: Engine struggle to start
« Reply #3 on: 22 October, 2020, 05:16:59 AM »
So you have two issues

1) Poor gear change - I assume when the service guy checked the clutch all the components were properly and thoroughly inspected, measured and found to be good and within specification tolerances. Although since he recommended removing the judder spring I'd question if he knows what he's doing. The correct procedure having confirmed the fault would have been to check clutch operation, engine oil and gear change mechanism.

2) Poor cold cranking - What say the service guy here or does he attribute this to the clutch!? The correct procedure to follow would be to confirm the fault, and then to check the battery (level of charge and cold cranking), check the battery connections, check the starter motor connections and circuit, check the starter motor no load operation, bearings, brushes and armature.


Offline alexg

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Re: Engine struggle to start
« Reply #4 on: 22 October, 2020, 06:19:52 AM »
1) service guy checked the clutch all the components were properly and thoroughly inspected, measured and found to be good and within specification tolerances.
Short answer would be no. He just inspected clutch visually and took off springs.
"I'd question if he knows what he's doing." - cannot agree more.
So once they have been removed i used my bike for more than a year. And i got used to dodgy gear shifting. This issue never affected starting performance.

2) Poor COLD and HOT cranking.
After he put back springs and fresh oil bike could not start any more.
This guy blame my charging system, saying it is not charging battery enough. ( i dont understand hot it is related to starting performance if i trying to start with fully charged battery+car battery)
I suspected it maybe starter motor brushes or something in that area but not charging system. So we stuck in the loop charging system -> starter motor until he told me to f-off in polite way. That's were we are at the moment.

Starter motor circuit i will check this weekend. I have not touched it before or after this fault developed.

As for battery its only few month old yausa battery.

Offline Art

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Re: Engine struggle to start
« Reply #5 on: 22 October, 2020, 10:47:34 AM »
You may need to start from square one with both your faults. Of course since the service guy has thrown it into the mix you may as well test and eliminate the charging system just in case he's onto something. Its easy enough, with the engine running at 5,000 RPM check the voltage across the battery terminals, expect 13.5 to 14.5v. It could also be sensible to think back to the time when the motorcycle was running as it should and then to list and check all the things that have been done to it since. For example the removal and re-fitting of the clutch judder spring and that new Yuasa battery check the fitment (YTX10S), the level of charge and cold cranking. Here's the plan and its the only plan, there are no magic wands here or short cuts.

1) Poor gear change check in order - clutch operation, engine oil and gear change mechanism.

2) Poor cold cranking check in order - the battery for correct fitment, level of charge and cold cranking, the battery connections, the starter motor connections and circuit, the starter motor no load operation, bearings, brushes and armature.

Assume nothing, check and test everything.

Offline alexg

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Re: Engine struggle to start
« Reply #6 on: 22 October, 2020, 01:16:19 PM »
*Originally Posted by Art [+]
You may need to start from square one with the engine running at 5,000 RPM check the voltage across the battery terminals, expect 13.5 to 14.5v.
I will try to start from the beginning. I checked voltages and @1500 i get 13.6, @5k - 14.7
Can cross out charging system.
 

*Originally Posted by Art [+]
It could also be sensible to think back to the time when the motorcycle was running as it should.
Only clutch judder spring was installed, and fresh oil+filter

*Originally Posted by Art [+]
1) Poor gear change check in order - clutch operation, engine oil and gear change mechanism.
Clutch operates smoothly did not find any issue when mechanic opened it last year. I did not check gear change mechanism its quite involved job, i think there is may be some problem causing shifting be bit sticky/difficult.
But it did not cause me starting up issue.


*Originally Posted by Art [+]
2) Poor cold cranking check in order - the battery for correct fitment, level of charge and cold cranking, the battery connections, the starter motor connections and circuit, the starter motor no load operation, bearings, brushes and armature.
- Battery checked, in good order and terminals are tight.
My next to do to check starting relay and after to take starter motor out.


Offline Art

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Re: Engine struggle to start
« Reply #7 on: 22 October, 2020, 04:08:45 PM »
With the engine running at 5,000 RPM and the battery voltage reading 14.7v you have to wonder why the service guy would suspect the charging system! The gear change and engine cranking are two totally separate issues. Checking the gear shift mechanism can get involved and run into a full weekends work and then some. All you need to do to check the starter relay is to listen for the click when pressing the starter button then again if the starter motor is spinning, even slowly, the starter relay should be good.

Before pulling the starter motor check the starter motor connections and the main 30A fuse terminals are all clean and secure.

Offline alexg

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Re: Engine struggle to start
« Reply #8 on: 23 October, 2020, 10:10:51 AM »
*Originally Posted by Art [+]
With the engine running at 5,000 RPM and the battery voltage reading 14.7v you have to wonder why the service guy would suspect the charging system!
I doubt his electrical knowlege. As he sayed car battery CAN damage electics on the bike.

*Originally Posted by Art [+]
Checking the gear shift mechanism can get involved and run into a full weekends work and then some.
Im trying find time to look into, hard job to do it by myself without access to the garage.
*Originally Posted by Art [+]
Before pulling the starter motor check the starter motor connections and the main 30A fuse terminals are all clean and secure.
Will do that this weekend.
As per manuals, there is no way to take starter motor out without removing airbox.  :087:

Offline Art

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Re: Engine struggle to start
« Reply #9 on: 23 October, 2020, 12:36:40 PM »
Take heart at least by tackling the work yourself you're not going to be hit for 70 hard earned for every hours labour.

 :211: Read the manual, understand each part of the task and take it one step at a time. A big plus in CBF1000 ownership is the ease in which it can be serviced and maintained at home by the home mechanic without the need of any special tools or diagnostic equipment.