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Offline Scootyman

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Re: Price rises on Stator and Flywheel kits from Germany
« Reply #20 on: 03 February, 2019, 10:45:14 PM »
*Originally Posted by Leofric [+]
Calm down ,calm down ( in a Scouser accent)

You startiní  You askiní  :405:

Offline Scootyman

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Re: Price rises on Stator and Flywheel kits from Germany
« Reply #21 on: 04 February, 2019, 08:38:21 AM »
*Originally Posted by J-man [+]
Stronger magnets result in a higher produced electrical power output of the generator.
Since the voltage regulation (keeping the bike at 12 to 14 volts) uses a generator-short-circuiting principle, if more power is outputted then more short circuit is necessary, and more load is on the coils of the generator.
With lesser strong magnets there's lesser short-circuiting of the generator necessary, hence lesser current loads on the coils. But your generator as a result can also produce less power if needed, seems Honda made a trade off with the newer flywheels to have a lower magnetic field.

I am not 100% sure (please correct me if I'm wrong) but I suppose the new flywheel does not improve more oil flow toward the stator coils. Just having lesser magnetic power.

There are other types of voltage regulators that don't work on the short-circuiting principle at all, these are called series-regulators, and with those you can throw strong magnets on them as much as you like no problem, but these regulators are somewhat more complex (read expensive) and need good cooling. A bunch of people here ( #metoo  :008: ) made the transition toward a series regulator but they are non Honda genuine.

J-Man can I ask which Series regulator you fitted? I have read a number of threads about those but it seems they are not without problems themselves. I am thinking once I fit the new flywheel and stator kit I will have less power at my disposal so an LED headlight upgrade should help and as I donít ride the biffer over winter much (itís too cold and icy in Scotland for that) I shouldnít need to power heated gear other than my heated grips so all should be well.
Have you had any problems with series regulators?
Thanks
Scoots

Offline J-man

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Re: Price rises on Stator and Flywheel kits from Germany
« Reply #22 on: 04 February, 2019, 02:45:41 PM »
At iNCORRIGIBLE: maybe you know already the stuff here below, but for completion in this thread in general I'll add a more extensive answer to what I said and make a summarise at the end.

*Originally Posted by iNCORRIGIBLE [+]
Many Thanks J Man for your view on this problem. Is it possible to know what background/job knowledge/specialism you draw upon to give us this helpful & very useful information please! Best Regards.Edward.Essex UK (CBF 2009)
I have an electronics/electrics degree (I was 23 when I left school) but that is not the most interesting thing here I suppose.
The real matter at hand is more related to topic and I'll elaborate on that:

The cheapest way for regulating voltage is SHUNT based.

The 3 red SCR's (or later MOSfets) literally short circuit the generator at given times.

They are activated by the control unit when to perform their short circuit action.

The short circuit current trough the coils render a magnetic field opposite to the magnets magnetic field, the net result is an overall lowered magnetic field. The effect of that is a lowered voltage output. This way the output voltage is controlled.
Advantages:
- cheap design
- small design to fit somewhere
- relative small heat production in the regulator
Disadvantage:
- one has to burden the coils with an extra current to counter the flywheel magnetic field.

So the decision of Honda to fit a flywheel with less magnetic strength is a logic one, if there is less magnets power to counter, one eventually has to counter less.
Thus one needs less of the shunting current, which leads to lesser burden on the coils.

***

The series regulators do things completely differently, there the regulating semi conductors are not parallel to the generator/load, but in series. If generator is producing 30 volts and we need only 13 volts for the bike, then the semiconductors will take the remaining 17 volts on them.

Advantage:
- no need for a shunting current, the generator coils only feel the current that is used by the bike;
Disadvantage:
- usually a bigger unit
- a lot more of local heat production in the regulator, in our example 17 volts times the used bike current, more cooling is necessary.
- more electronics inside thus more expensive.


I did a big thread once here to compare shunt vs series regulators and measure coil temperatures while riding.
https://www.cbf1000.com/index.php/topic,20187.0.html
I do not suggest to dig trough it, I'll sum up the finals here for convenience below.

***

A summarise:
Series regulator did lead to lower generator coil temperatures, but not that much as hoped for.
Series regulators might extend the life of a genuine HONDA stator, but counting on preventing burning it completely is less likely.
If I would choose for a series regulator again then I would only choose one that fits in the existing place, I would not bother again finding an alternative mounting place.
The best way to cool the stator coils is to rev up (confirmed by the coil temp measurements) and keep that oil level to its max limit for best oil flow to stator section.
To have a good idea if heading for a series regulator is worthwhile, then we need actually more data, more people's testimonies. What we have so far is mere anecdotal.

***

About the discourse of words, I think we're all human and that shows sometimes. Lets not be too hard on our selves, excuses came quickly so no harm done?
iNCORRIGIBLE: your asking for my degree can be interpreted in several ways, I hope it was really a harmless question and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  :028:
Please feel free to add or correct my contemporary view on the matters with preference to the technical aspects, if you have any to share.

Blessed be  :031:
« Last Edit: 04 February, 2019, 03:11:56 PM by J-man »

Offline J-man

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Re: Price rises on Stator and Flywheel kits from Germany
« Reply #23 on: 04 February, 2019, 02:57:52 PM »
*Originally Posted by Scootyman [+]
J-Man can I ask which Series regulator you fitted? I have read a number of threads about those but it seems they are not without problems themselves. I am thinking once I fit the new flywheel and stator kit I will have less power at my disposal so an LED headlight upgrade should help and as I donít ride the biffer over winter much (itís too cold and icy in Scotland for that) I shouldnít need to power heated gear other than my heated grips so all should be well.
Have you had any problems with series regulators?
Thanks
Scoots

See https://www.cbf1000.com/index.php/topic,20187.130.html
 :016:
* SH775 Shindengen aka Polaris 4012941 <---- needs a lot of cooling or fails
* SH847 Shindengen aka  Suzuki Part: 32800-31J00  <----- Mine, very much OK so far.
« Last Edit: 04 February, 2019, 03:02:53 PM by J-man »

Online iNCORRIGIBLE

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Re: Price rises on Stator and Flywheel kits from Germany
« Reply #24 on: 04 February, 2019, 07:30:04 PM »
Hi J-Man .Many thanks for sharing your knowledge with us all.The "meat out of the pudding" in all of this seems(???) to be loosely based on the following core requisites for a ,hopefully, non -deep -fried stator :

1.MosFet "switches" at  the core of any control system versus SCR's.

2.Series Regulation of alternator output over Shunt Regulation.

3.Suitable cooling and /or siting/specification of the Rectifier/Regulator.

4.Quality specification of any replacement stator.

5.Appropriate maintenance of engine oil level( = the stator coolant).

6.Minimisation of Alternator Workload.

All content based on working observations & gut/experience so not authoratative.Edward.(There are old Engineers & there are bold Engineers....................................................................There are no OLD -BOLD Engineers. :465:

Offline phild

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Re: Price rises on Stator and Flywheel kits from Germany
« Reply #25 on: 04 February, 2019, 07:39:32 PM »
Am I the only one who hasnít got the foggiest idea whatís being said here???

 :125: :001:

Online iNCORRIGIBLE

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Re: Price rises on Stator and Flywheel kits from Germany
« Reply #26 on: 04 February, 2019, 07:48:09 PM »
Sorry Phild.Just an overly deep discussion on how not to braise/ BBQ/Pot Roast your CBF Alternator.Ed. :431:

Offline Scootyman

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Re: Price rises on Stator and Flywheel kits from Germany
« Reply #27 on: 04 February, 2019, 08:22:47 PM »
I have to say Iím enjoying this again now after todayís posts.

Sorry to bomb you with questions J-man but hereís another thought I wondered about.
If you fit LED headlight bulbs which take less power from whatís available from the alternator or stator in our case, does that mean the excess power left will have to be offloaded by the regulator resulting in more heat around the coils on the stator or does it not work like that? Is it not better to leave the original bulbs and burn whatís available or is that a worse scenario than using less power and allowing the regulator to burn it off in heat?
Best regards
Scoots

Offline Scootyman

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Re: Price rises on Stator and Flywheel kits from Germany
« Reply #28 on: 04 February, 2019, 08:37:28 PM »
*Originally Posted by iNCORRIGIBLE [+]
Hi J-Man .Many thanks for sharing your knowledge with us all.The "meat out of the pudding" in all of this seems(???) to be loosely based on the following core requisites for a ,hopefully, non -deep -fried stator :

1.MosFet "switches" at  the core of any control system versus SCR's.

2.Series Regulation of alternator output over Shunt Regulation.

3.Suitable cooling and /or siting/specification of the Rectifier/Regulator.

4.Quality specification of any replacement stator.

5.Appropriate maintenance of engine oil level( = the stator coolant).

6.Minimisation of Alternator Workload.

All content based on working observations & gut/experience so not authoratative.Edward.(There are old Engineers & there are bold Engineers....................................................................There are no OLD -BOLD Engineers. :465:

Mentioning oil level, I wonder also if oil specification could change the cooling effect. I have read on here that the oil channels arenít very efficient around the stator on the Mk1 biffer resulting in poor cooling of the stator. So what happens if you run an oil with a different viscosity? i.e a 5w30 fully synthetic instead of a 10w40 semi synthetic. It is sure to flow better around the engine so surely if you can get more oil around quicker that would aid cooling. I suppose I wonít have to worry now though as the new kit arrived today from Germany so in a month or so when I fit it, I can forget about the stator problems for a long while to come.

Scoots
« Last Edit: 04 February, 2019, 08:38:52 PM by Scootyman »

Offline Leofric

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Re: Price rises on Stator and Flywheel kits from Germany
« Reply #29 on: 05 February, 2019, 01:04:32 AM »
 ' Am I the only one who hasnít got the foggiest idea whatís being said here??? ' - No.