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Offline MohKraats

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Re: CBF running temperature
« Reply #60 on: 09 March, 2020, 08:10:23 AM »
My CBF1000F also used to kick in the fan quite quickly.
Seems to be a CBF habit.

Now I got the cause of that.
After installing a Power Commander and having my bike mapped decently,
It stays much cooler. Now it's rather rare that the fan kicks in.

Turns out that the standard mapping, this bike gets from the factory, is set very lean.
Running so lean, makes the engine run much hotter then needed.
This is even made worse in case one mounts an after market muffler (usually an open muffler)

My mapping was set to a smooth ride (not peaked on power)
almost all areas of the mapping needed a richer setting, some areas up to 20% plus.

So, that explains this engine to be such a hotty ...
Also explains the sparkplug change at its set interval to be a must.
Even the OEM prescribed Denso Tough plugs which are said to hold for 120.000 kms in a car, are set to be replaced every 20.000 ? kms
In my previous bike (VFR750F carb bike) even the regular iridium plugs laster forever. (iridium power)

Offline Crispy

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Re: CBF running temperature
« Reply #61 on: 09 March, 2020, 10:43:53 AM »
I’ve read a few threads on power commanders and the feedback suggests they’re a waste of money, with only single figure gains in BHP and torque. But for smoother power delivery and a cooler engine with less fan noise it may be worth the investment. Don’t think this has be discussed re: power commander keeping the engine cooler. Will have a look into buying a second hand unit, and see if it can be remapped from another bike onto a biffer. FP3 on Harley’s are stuck on the same bike. Could I ask if you fitted a K&N air filter?

Cheers
A day without learning is a day wasted

Offline MohKraats

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Re: CBF running temperature
« Reply #62 on: 09 March, 2020, 11:02:44 AM »
Hello Crispy,

I am not sure, the filter thats fitted looks very strong like a K&N.
However, I doubt it makes much of a difference regarding the topic.

Thing is, however, when you have the bike mapped, you should first do your maintenance like plugs, filter and valve clearance adjustment, since those will influence how your A/F should look like. Also adjustments to the exhaust should be done before.
After that have it mapped.

I had it mapped because it just didn't run that fine as it could, expecially when riding slowly second gear, or slowly lowering speed on the engine wasn't a pleasure.
All signs of a to lean A/F
Well
and besides that, running E10, when you really really really want to insist on tapping that messed up fuel,
E10 will turn your A/F even leaner then it already was on bikes with a fixed mapping like this one.
That besides all other E10 misery.

So, just to make the bike run smoother, its worth to invest in something that lets you remap the bike.


Offline MohKraats

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Re: CBF running temperature
« Reply #63 on: 09 March, 2020, 11:06:44 AM »
Oups,

There I must come back on my own words.
Regarding the K&N filter.
Just realized such filter would have less air resistance.
Therefore letting air in easier.
Would mean you would even get more air into your bike, while the mapping is rigid.

So, that would mean for a bike like this that a K&N filter would cause your A/F to turn even leaner then it already was.

That in mind, I would discourage from installing such filter on this bike without remapping

Offline MohKraats

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Re: CBF running temperature
« Reply #64 on: 09 March, 2020, 12:44:25 PM »
Power commander

Hello Crispy,
Regarding your remark on power commanders.

First of all, a Power Commander only makes sense if you get it mapped decently on a roller bench, by someone who knows what he is doing.
Secondly, the biggest improvement is made on a bike with a static mapping.
A static mapping is when the amount of injected fuel is not live adjusted based on an oxygen sensor, like in all modern cars and in the latest bikes too nowadays (bikes since roughly 2014)

What they do is that after developing a bike, one bike gets a custom mapping, which is then coppied into all new bikes that come from the line.
So, all new bikes have then the same mapping.
Where each and every engine is a little different from that first bike, the difference is kind of acceptable for a regular bike.
it results however in one bike running better then another.
Mapping each and every single bike is however way to expensive to do.

Next to that, there is the issue with catalists.
A catalist needs a certain amount of oxygen to work.
If the A/F is lean enough, the engine will get more air then it needs, leaving some of it in the exhaust, to be used by the catalist to work.
An oxygen sensor in the exhaust does measure that amount of oxygen, and adjusts either the A/F to achieve the desired amount of oxygen for a good catalist function,
or, like the CBF, the mapping is fixed (already lean) and besed upon the oxygen sensor value, more or less air is injected into the exhaust.

All and all, because of this, the modern engines are set to run quite lean.
That means with an A/F that is not set for power, but for catalist.
The engine does not run with its maximum efficiency due to this.

Injecting more fuel, would also increase sefficiency, and therefore power
This is how a Power Commander finds more power.
And yes one does use beautiful figures to boost sales,
but still one can indeed increase power with a Power Commander.
And, on top of that, the Power Commander is the safest way of doing that, because with that you control the A/F,
preventing costly engine damage due to overheating ......
How much power one can gain ....? Depends on your bike.
And the environment ? Goes to waste when mapping for maximum power.

Offline MohKraats

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Re: CBF running temperature
« Reply #65 on: 09 March, 2020, 02:59:19 PM »
Adding to my last post:

The power gain that can be achieved with a Power Commander is limited for the CBF1000F, since most air for the Catalist is injected directly from the airfilter box into the exhaust.
That means that the A/F is not as far of the optimum for power as with a bike that feeds the catalist all ist oxygen through the engine (by running very lean)

It is only the difference between original A/F and the power optimum A/F that can be gained in more power.

A/F at maximum power is 12,6:1 (air:fuel)
A/F for an engine that feeds the catalist completely through the engine is :  14,7:1
A/F I found in my bike was between 13,5:1 and 14:1
The bike has been adjusted to approx 13,2:1 for a smoother run.
And on top of that equalized over the hole map.
Stock the A/F deviated quite a lot over the map.

Offline MohKraats

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Re: CBF running temperature
« Reply #66 on: 09 March, 2020, 03:22:15 PM »

Offline g5guzzi

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Re: CBF running temperature
« Reply #67 on: 09 March, 2020, 08:01:55 PM »
Hi MohKraats
has it made any difference to how much fuel you use?

Malc

Offline MohKraats

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Re: CBF running temperature
« Reply #68 on: 10 March, 2020, 06:25:26 AM »
Still to early to make a statement on fuel use / ,mileage.
However, I'd expect that to increase slightly, but thats a small sacrifice for a better running engine.
Anyway,
it will be very difficult to say anything on mileage, since that depends heavilly on how you hold your throttle.
Besides that, even when you try to keep exact same driving style as before, when the bike feels different, you will drive differently.
My bike does have a little more power in some areas, making it feel a more smooth power built-up.
That makes it tempting to use that too.

So, yes, most probably, my mileage will go down somewhat now.

Offline MohKraats

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Re: CBF running temperature
« Reply #69 on: 10 March, 2020, 06:31:16 AM »
Power Commander, worth it ?

It is a load of cash. (don't forget the mapping costs, which can be even more then the costs for the device)

It brings you a little bit of power increase, at the margin.
The engine stays a bit cooler.
The engine runs better, especially with little till non load.

All the changes are small, no dramatic improvements.

If I would do it again, I don't know. Its a load of cash.
Still, now, I don't regret it.
I enjoy my bike more then before.

 


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